The Illearth War - Chapter 18 Doom's Retreat

[SoulBiter]

I dont know off the top of my head what the mistake is that you are talking about and I cant find my stinking book to re-read the chapter

[Krazy Kat]

The raver uses the word 'worship'.

Before the company entered Morrinmoss in Lord Foul's Bane, Prothal said to Covenant, in answer to his question about wether the people of the Land worship trees, that the word was unknown to him. So why does a Raver (or a giant) use a word that doesn't belong in the Land?

(In another scene from the Illearth War, Lord Mhoram also says something similair when Covenant talks about 'scenery'. Lord Mhoram said that he didn't like the sound of the word.)

The second 'word' appears later in The Blood of the Earth, when High Lord Elena is stablising the dangerous slope of scree. It echoes what Verement was doing at Doom's Retreat.

In the third paragraph of chapter 23 Knowledge, there's a metaphor used to describe Covenant's suppressed rage:

Leaping to his feet, he shook his fists at the sky like a reefed and lonely galleon firing its guns in bootless defiance of the invulnerable ocean. Damnation!

I don't beleive Stephen Donaldson uses symbols and metaphors just to fill space on the page. The wordplay of the 'galleon' and 'worship' and the two 'words of warning' are keys to a hidden knowledge. What this is, I don't know!

Any thoughts on this are more than welcome.

[wayfriend]

At one point, Atairan says that "sacred" is an obscure word to her. Then, in Revelstone, there is a very prominent place known as the "sacred enclosure" by everyone.

I think these are slip-ups, which a good editor could have caught.

Even Tolkien talks about "freight trains" in the Hobbit. It happens.

[Allan]

So is the house virgin (reader, I mean) going to be the Gandalf fan leaping to the rescue?

You're thinking tactics, not strategy. Imagine the Balrog at Helm's Deep, or Pelennor Fields? Just like 50 years earlier he took out the last Dragon, in Moria he takes out the, potentially, last Balrog.

Lord Verement's actions seem to be at the intermediate stage, but it seems the schedule is cut pretty close, so one wonders. Without this? Would they have made the rest?

[Cord Hurn]

There is indeed something puzzling about this chapter. Fleshharrower's demand that Verement worship him is very strange in any case. What does the Giant-Raver really have to gain by that?

[SleeplessOne]

There is indeed something puzzling about this chapter. Fleshharrower's demand that Verement worship him is very strange in any case. What does the Giant-Raver really have to gain by that?

moksha tries to compel Verement to worship Foul, not himself ..

I don't think Fleshharrower had anything to 'gain' as such, I just think the Ravers, sick bastards that they are, would get a kick out of corrupting, humiliating and breaking a Lord and further demoralising the Warward.

That entire passage is tremendous, Verement's stand is doomed but he does not give an inch; some of his comebacks are among the most righteous, kick-ass lines of the entire chrons.

"You speak like a fool", and
"I match you hate for hate" ...

but of course moksha's power is just too great.
The Raver stomping Thomin's "structureless flesh" into the ground is another image that affects me quite viscerally... Ravers be crazy ..

[Savor Dam]

This is indeed one of the central moments of the First Chronicles. What leads to it is critical to making Verement the Lord he needs to be at this moment.

Spoiler

As those who have read the entire Chrons know, the Ranyhyn have knowledge that transcends linear time.

The Ranyhyn's lack of acceptance of Verement as a rider does not reflect unworthy on his part; difficult though it is, they have refused him to ensure he is forged for this moment. Not being chosen by a Ranyhyn both ensures he does not accompany Lord Shetra on the Mission to Seareach and reinforces his sense that he is not the equal of his wife or the other Lords.

The news that Shetra fell to the Lurker in the Sarangrave catalyzes Verement's sense of unworthy, loss, and having nothing remaining to personally lose. He may have been close to the emotional state that Trell was in in TPTP and capable of either Desecration or the alternative Mhoram found...but the second book is not the place for that breakthrough.

Instead, Verement, true Lord that he is, has the strength to hold fast to his intent in the face of a Raver, much as Giants and Haruchai can. While his lore is not sufficient to prevail, he suffices to surpass Fleshharrower's will. Only with the Stone is Fleshharrower narrowly able to drive Verement to the verge of breaking. Having foreseen this possibility, Verement had instructed Thomin's last act.

Having been so deprived of Verement's surrender, of course Fleshharrower unleashes his bootless spite on Thomin...but the already-dead Haruchai is beyond any suffering for what the Giant-Raver does with his lifeless corpse.

[dlbpharmd]

Excellent post, SD.

[wayfriend]

I absolutely agree, emotion - any emotion - unlocks power. The more intense the emotions are felt, and the more unreservedly they are expressed, the more power is unleashed. Verement is an early lesson to this idea. And this lesson is for the benefit of the reader, for neither Covenant nor Mhoram is around to witness it.

So good point.

But was the invisible hand of the Ranyhyn present in this? It is sufficient to believe that the circumstances were arranged by the author in order to expound on his theme. The involvement of the great horses is one of those things that you can choose to believe, and it will neither be confirmed nor denied by the text. But if they had shaped this event, what ends did they hope to achieve?

Spoiler

Certainly the invisible hand became more concrete in the later Chronicles. The question is really whether Donaldson had this in mind already in these earlier stages of the story. If so, he was content to imply it without stating it.

[Savor Dam]

I agree with WF's point that there is not explicit evidence of the hand (hoof?) of the Ranyhyn in this. It is, however, one of the more satisfying explanations for why Verement was not chosen to ride.

There is clearly something "timey wimey" going on with creatures who are able to anticipate a call before it happens and to then cross a continent so as to arrive just when called. We know that much about the Ranyhyn by midway through LFB.

Also in LFB, we learn that few of the Lords are chosen by the Ranyhyn, and that Verement is not among those chosen.

"They choose in their own way, and even the Ramen cannot explain them. ... Brother Verement is a worthy man."

We see them making a choice about Verement that may be capricious, but it is not SRD's way for details this significant to be in the story for no reason, especially in light of these seeds being sown a book earlier than the scene we now discuss.

[Cord Hurn]

moksha tries to compel Verement to worship Foul, not himself ..

You are correct, SleeplessOne! My error.

[Cord Hurn]

This is indeed one of the central moments of the First Chronicles. What leads to it is critical to making Verement the Lord he needs to be at this moment.

Spoiler

As those who have read the entire Chrons know, the Ranyhyn have knowledge that transcends linear time.

The Ranyhyn's lack of acceptance of Verement as a rider does not reflect unworthy on his part; difficult though it is, they have refused him to ensure he is forged for this moment. Not being chosen by a Ranyhyn both ensures he does not accompany Lord Shetra on the Mission to Seareach and reinforces his sense that he is not the equal of his wife or the other Lords.

The news that Shetra fell to the Lurker in the Sarangrave catalyzes Verement's sense of unworthy, loss, and having nothing remaining to personally lose. He may have been close to the emotional state that Trell was in in TPTP and capable of either Desecration or the alternative Mhoram found...but the second book is not the place for that breakthrough.

Instead, Verement, true Lord that he is, has the strength to hold fast to his intent in the face of a Raver, much as Giants and Haruchai can. While his lore is not sufficient to prevail, he suffices to surpass Fleshharrower's will. Only with the Stone is Fleshharrower narrowly able to drive Verement to the verge of breaking. Having foreseen this possibility, Verement had instructed Thomin's last act.

Having been so deprived of Verement's surrender, of course Fleshharrower unleashes his bootless spite on Thomin...but the already-dead Haruchai is beyond any suffering for what the Giant-Raver does with his lifeless corpse.

What an absolutely awesome post, Savor Dam!!! You've given me much food for thought!

[Cord Hurn]

That entire passage is tremendous, Verement's stand is doomed but he does not give an inch; some of his comebacks are among the most righteous, kick-ass lines of the entire chrons.

"You speak like a fool", and
"I match you hate for hate" ...

Truly, Verement has nothing to lose but his life, which he no longer values, and so he's holding nothing back! It's terrific drama, all the way.