TMOHD Chapter 4: The Old Dodderer

[MsMary]

So, now we have come to Ch. 4, The Old Dodderer, and our introduction to King Joyce.

Eremis has just walked out in disgust, and Geraden stands in embarrassment before the rest of the Masters, who are glaring at him.

Trembling inside, Terisa studied him, too. Softly, hesitantly, she asked, “What do you mean, he believes I don’t exist? Or I didn’t exist until I was translated from the mirror?” That idea hit her too hard, too deeply. Was the uncertainty of her being so plain that even strangers could see it? “It doesn’t make any sense. None of this makes any sense. You don’t even know who I am.”

The idea that she might not really exist is reinforced by one of the possible theories of imagery, and can possibly affect Terisa’s behavior and choices in this new environment. On the other hand, we are faced with the paradox that the way Geraden looks at her, talks to her, and takes her seriously makes her feel more real.

The way she talks to him is out of character, almost saucy:

“Apt Geraden, if I’m real, I must be important…Don’t you think it might be a good idea to find out who I am?”

And she confronts King Joyce when he summarily decides to move Terisa from Geraden's care:

"You didn't have to do that to him."

Once again, we are faced with one of Geraden’s “feelings.”

“I should have let you go with Master Eremis. I don’t know what came over me.”

He doesn’t tell the Masters about Terisa’s mirrors, because of those “feelings”:

He shrugged. “I meant to. But at the last second I had the strongest feeling-” His voice trailed away than came back more strongly. “I just don’t trust Master Eremis. Or Master Gilbur, either, for that matter. I don’t want to tell them anything.”

Geraden introduces Terisa to King Joyce, whose wonderful smile has an effect on her:

Irrationally, she felt that her entire life would have been different if she had seen anyone smile like that before.

King Joyse and Adept Havelock, oddly enough, are playing a game called “hopboard.” She recognizes it as checkers. She realizes, in the course of her conversation with the King, that mirrors behave differently here. The King believes she may be an Imager, and so must be treated like an ambassador – with courtesy, but not admitted to state secrets. All of these things serve to increase the sense of unreality and improbability in her mind. Almost like a dream in which strange things happen.

King Joyce explains to Geraden why the Lady Terisa must be treated as an ambassador and than turns to her:

“Would you say, my lady,” he asked Terisa unexpectedly, “that I’ve summarized the dilemma fairly?”

She stared at him, unable to follow his reasoning.

How would you feel and act in this situation??!!

Please add your thoughts and comments. I would be happy to do Ch 5 too, but don't have time for 2 chapters right now.

Sky, I didn't do a poll, if you want to add one, feel free.

~MsMary~

[duchess of malfi]

I've always felt very sorry for terisa here. She is in a completely strange place, surrounded by strange people -- she doesn't understand what is happening to her, or the new strange powers she has been exposed to. And the one person who seems to truly care about what happens to her has been forbidden to answer any questions!
If I were in Terisa's place I think I would be very upset at this point in the story!

[Ryzel]

I have said it before and I will say it again. I am not really all that impressed with King Joyses plan. It is good in theory, but the execution sucks. Havelock is better, but then he is mad.

Another thing is the 'feelings' that Geraden gets. This seems to be quite a common thing amongst heroes in SRD books. Off the top of my head I remember that TC, Chrysalis and Mick Axbrewder all relied on intuitive "feelings" when making their choices.

[Birinair]

Geraden's "feelings" are meant to convey, at this early stage of the story, that he is more puissant than either he or those around him can imagine. It is setting the scene for the later discovery of talent. However it is also a device to allow Terisa to have a sense of being unsure as to whether to follow Geraden's suggestions. This dilemma is all the more pronounced as the story develops because she sees King Joyse (presumably the most powerful man in the Kingdom) acting irrationally, that is on the basis of feelings not intellect, but still being followed by his people in spite of that. Thus the books have the theme running throughout that the apparently emotional and irrational are hiding a power, that they may be aware or unaware of.
Yet Terisa's approach is unusual, she seems to want to rely on a rational approach, but is constantly doubting that approach's results, see how she wants to trust Geraden, despite having been given rational reasons by Eremis to doubt him.
Is SD trying to convince us that the truth lies in our emotions not our intellect?

[Skyweir]

I totally concur with Ryzel .. I too have said this before .. I do not believe Joyse's plan is in any way sound .. and I think it fails to achieve what he hopes it to .. ultimately ..

the best laid plans of mice and men

well to me it is not one of the best laid plans .. and look forward to reading the books again to analyse his plan more closely .. definitely does not inspire me as a great military tactician ..

yes Birinair you are right .. SRD does use these character plays to tease out certain responses from his actors .. to make their actions both credible and justifiable .. hence develop his plot ..

Is SD trying to convince us that the truth lies in our emotions not our intellect?

that is a very interesting question .. I am really undecided on this question .. I am not sure what constitutes emotions? Because it is via Teresa's emotions that she becomes involved with Eremis .. inspite of her initial gut feeling to the contrary. Eremis plays on her emotions and her perceived vulnerabilities ..

So perhaps gut feeling is more accurately to be relied on than emotion?

Yet I have always thought Donaldson .. rates intelligence highly .. so .. I am befuddled .. and willneed to ponder on this conundrum longer ..

good question tho' .. really excellent!

[duchess of malfi]

Lord Sky, I, too, have had long time doubts about the King's strategy. It seems to be a rather costly one to me, but I am no military planner, so I don't know if I could come up with anything any better? I am looking forward to seeing other people's ideas, though -- I'm certain someone will come up with a more effective plan!
I think that it would be "gut instinct" rather than emotion...
And his most effective characters, such as Lord Mhoram combine intelligence, passion, and yes, a trust to follow what is in their hearts. Hope that makes a bit of sense.

[Ryzel]

I think that many characters in SRD stories rely on their gut feeling a lot more than they do on rational thought.

As for the merits of Joyses plan I suggest we discuss this later, when we are closer to finishing the group read. Then we can tally the cost and the benefits and really see if his plan is good or not. THAT, is a ration approach.

[duchess of malfi]

That's a good point Ryzel. I think that we should wait until further along to get into an in-depth discussion of that particular topic...but I am looking forward to that day!

[DirectorDios]

I am SO very pleased to see that there is apparently a group reading of some sort going on. The Mordant stories are my favorite of all of SRD's works. I don't have anything of import to add to the thread. I just wanted to drop a line and say HI to all. <i>(Artagel RULES!)</i>

[Skyweir]

yeah Artagel does rule!!

[MsMary]

I am SO very pleased to see that there is apparently a group reading of some sort going on. The Mordant stories are my favorite of all of SRD's works. I don't have anything of import to add to the thread. I just wanted to drop a line and say HI to all. <i>(Artagel RULES!)</i>

Director, MN is one of my favorite books of all time.

And Artagel is one of my favorite characters.

~MsMary~

[matrixman]

Terisa Morgan is a character that seems to be misunderstood as much as Thomas Covenant was. They're both outsiders in their respective way. Does this mean many readers are quick to judge characters who don't follow the 'norm'? If the norm means average cookie-cutter characters who are defined by how many cliches they utter in the course of a story, then I'm staying the hell away from norm.

I identify with Terisa a great deal...in her difficulty in expressing herself to others for fear of disapproval...her difficulty in trusting her feelings because she spent so many years divorcing herself from them, to the point where genuine emotion becomes something almost alien to her. In this chapter, it's good to see Terisa enjoying the company of Geraden for the simple pleasure of company. But she feels disappointed in her responses to Geraden's talk. Whereas she sees sincerity and openness in Geraden's regard for her, Terisa sees in herself only superficiality:

His attention was focused on her as though he wanted to make more promises. In reply, she gave him the polite, non-committal smile she had perfected by the time she was a teenager--and groaned to herself because her response to him was so much emptier than his to her.

King Joyse and Adept Havelock are quite the odd couple. I guess anyone walking into a room and seeing Havelock would think: okay, avoid the raving lunatic at all costs. With Joyse, there is something going on. The ambiguous way SRD describes Joyse and his behavior to Terisa and Geraden indicates that there is more here than what's on the surface, just like the magical mirrors themselves.

[Usivius]

Just finished this chapter with my wife (we are doing a group reading of sorts. She is originally from Ecuador and reading English is not her strong suit, so what does her husband do?... gets her to start reading Donaldson... heheheh)
Anyway. We like this chapter. As with all SRD stuff (except 'The Man Who' books, starts everything off slowly, and builds thje tension. Through Teresa we get to see both sides of Geraden, and we also get to see a little of the fire in her that is roused when she sees something 'wrong'. My wife like that part.

I would love to discuss, what I have come to feel, is King Joyse's risky yet genius plan, but I haven't the time right now. Let me search for an adequate post for that one later,....

[Cord Hurn]

From the beginning, the discomfort Geraden feels in being loyal to King Joyse is quite apparent.

Geraden took a step forward, but neither King Joyse nor the old Adept looked up from the game. After a moment, he cleared his throat. Still neither of the players took notice of him. He glanced back at Terisa and shrugged, then ventured to call attention to himself.

"My lord King, I've brought the lady Terisa of Morgan to you." He hesitated briefly before adding, "I've told her you must meet her."

Adept Havelock remained hunched over the board, unheeding of everything except his game. But the King raised his head, turned his moist blue gaze toward Geraden and Terisa.

He seemed to take a moment to focus his eyes. Then slowly, he began to smile.

Terisa thought immediately that he had a wonderful smile. It contained none of the artificial good humor or calculation she might have expected from a ruler. Instead, it lighted his face with a clean, childlike innocence and pleasure: it made him look like a young boy who had unexpectedly found a secret friend. Irrationally, she felt that her entire life might have been different if she had seen anyone smile like that before. She couldn't stop herself from smiling back at him--and didn't want to.

With a slight quaver of age in his voice, he said, "If you have told her that I must meet her, Geraden, then surely I must. It would be unforgivably discourteous if you spoke anything less than the truth to such a lady--and so it would be equally rude if I failed to make what you have told her true."

Carefully, he pushed his chair back and rose to his feet. His movements were unsteady; standing, he appeared more than ever lost in his voluminous robe. But his smile remained as pure as sunlight. "My lady Terisa of Morgan, do you play hop-board?"

Terisa was fixed on King Joyse, but at the edge of her attention, she thought she saw Geraden wince.