The Witch-King of Angmar

[burgs]

This may have been discussed. Perhaps even by me, when the extended version of TROTK came out. I remember being wrathful.

On March 14 the Witch-king, infused by Sauron with added demonic force, led massive numbers of Orcs, Haradrim, and Easterlings to besiege Minas Tirith. Before dawn on the 15th, the great battering-ram Grond, likely assisted by the Witch-king's sorcery, was used to break the city's main gate. He was the first ever enemy of Minas Tirith to enter its gate and grounds. Riding on a horse, the Witch-king was prevented from entering the city further only by Gandalf.

"You cannot enter here," said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!"
"Old fool!" he said. "Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.

Before the two engaged, the cock crowed, the darkness broke, and the horns of Rohan were heard as around 6,000 of their riders joined the battle. This forced the Witch-king to withdraw and remount, this time on his fell beast.

I'm curious. In Jackson's extended version of TROTK, the Witch-King tosses Gandalf the WHITE from his steed and shatters his staff. Right away, any self-respecting LOTR fan knows that the shattering of an Istari staff is an Istari matter; so Gandalf taught us himself. But more than that - the Witch-king tossed Gandalf? I doubt that would have been possible even if the "old fool" had been 'Grey'. As 'White', never.

Regardless of whether or not you have a problem with Jackson's interpretation - what do you think would *really* have happened had the two knocked heads?

I'm of the opinion that Gandalf would have given Sauron himself a good run, and that perhaps Gandalf feared Sauron more for Sauron's desire for dominance and destruction than his actual power. Even allowing that Sauron, with or without his ring, could have mastered Gandalf, I think that the Witch-King, being human (yeah, he's Numenorean, big deal), hasn't a chance, even bearing a ring, against a Maia. So where did the Witch-King get his confidence?

Any thoughts?

[Seafoam Understone]

Regardless of whether or not you have a problem with Jackson's interpretation - what do you think would *really* have happened had the two knocked heads?

Well as far as the film goes it would all depend upon the script now wouldn't it? Remember that while a literal translation of a written work into film is definitely possible and sometimes occurs, it's not always the best way to do it. For one thing, one has to take in account of the "general" audience seeing the film. How many of those have read the book(s)? How many of those have actually understood the depths of said book(s)?
Thus a director/screen-writer would have to take that into account.
I was put off as well with the inconsistencies of the books & films but was damn glad that Jackson heeded the outcry from the legions of fans saying the first film was incomplete and that he convinced the film staff and actors to go back and add on to what they've done. This is grueling work for an actor keep in mind. Particularly if they have to don special wardrobes and make-up as in the case of the "non-humans" in the film (i.e. getting up at 3:00 am to sit in a chair --awake-- for four or five hours to get the make up on every-single-day of shooting).
So Jackson did as well as he could and that effort was only rewarded with just ONE best picture instead of three (1 oscar for each chapter).
In the hands of another director perhaps a major battle between the Witch-King and Gandalf would've been a spectacular eye-feast but it would've also dragged the film (extended-version) to perhaps 4 hours if the other scenes were kept in as well. But Jackson has shown that he can provide just a tasty-heart pounding scene if he had wanted to. The battles and so on were just spectacular considering.
But as Tolkien had intended; Gandalf was not fated to fight/slay the Witch-King because as he (the WK) stated "No MAN can kill me", thus Éowyn being the warrior woman she was, had that duty.

From Wikipedia on Eowyn and an interesting insight on Merry as well...

the Witch-king would not "fall by the hand of man". Éowyn then removed her helmet, exposing her long blond hair and declared:

"No living man am I! You look upon a woman."

Éowyn slew the Witch-king after Merry stabbed him behind the knee. Strictly speaking, Merry is also "no man," being a Hobbit. However, the stab behind the knee likely would not have been fatal, even if it did break the bonds that "bent his unseen sinews to his will", thanks to the magic of Merry's barrow-blade. The consensus is that Merry's stab made the Witch-king vulnerable while Éowyn's slash actually resulted in death.

Thus that being for non-Tolkienites pretty complicated stuff but it still was featured in the film and made for a satisfying scene, without the weighty explaination.

I'm of the opinion that Gandalf would have given Sauron himself a good run, and that perhaps Gandalf feared Sauron more for Sauron's desire for dominance and destruction than his actual power. Even allowing that Sauron, with or without his ring, could have mastered Gandalf, I think that the Witch-King, being human (yeah, he's Numenorean, big deal), hasn't a chance, even bearing a ring, against a Maia. So where did the Witch-King get his confidence?
Any thoughts?

I'm sure the WK gotten his confidence from the same place that the lead Orc got his... "Fear, the air is ripe with it" as he could smell the fear from the besieged of Minas Tirth. Also the sheer numbers of Saurons army would be enough to inspire confidence, knowing that another wave from the black-ships would aid in the "slaughter".
Likewise the WK was probably confident that the Lord Sauron would soon have the One Ring back in his hand and thus nothing could oppose them.

[burgs]

Good notes on the film - I guess I didn't phrase my questions correctly. I really intended it more as a "what if?" question, for the books, not the movie. If the cock hadn't crowed, if Rohan hadn't shown up at just the right time - and the two had to engage each other, what would have happened?

[Ur Dead]

Never did understand why Jackson referred to the head Nazgul as the Witch King. By the time of LOTR the Nazgul had fullfill his purpose and destroyed the realm of Anor. That happened in the second age after Sauron had been disassociated from his physical form.

Once Anor was removed, wasn't it Elrond along with a host of elves from the Havens who took out the Witch King of Angmar?

[wayfriend]

The assorted balrog-slaying aside, I think it would have been curtains for old Gandalf if that cock hadn't crowed.

Gandalf's talents did not come through force of arms. On the other hand, the Witch King's powers were siphoned directly from Sauron.

Maia are not Maia are not Maia. They are between the Valar and the Eldar, but there is a whole wide range there. Sauron was one of the highest, doing mighty deeds since the Song. Others were nothing more than gardeners for Valla, and the like.

Given that, the evidence in the Silmarillion suggests that Olorin was no where near as mighty as Sauron. Even with the Balrog of Moria, Gandalf defeated it more through cunning than brute force.

So ... perhaps Gandalf could have found a trick to use against the old Witch King. But excepting that, he probably would have been squished.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Good notes on the film - I guess I didn't phrase my questions correctly. I really intended it more as a "what if?" question, for the books, not the movie. If the cock hadn't crowed, if Rohan hadn't shown up at just the right time - and the two had to engage each other, what would have happened?

It's an interesting question.
I love "what-ifs"!

In my opinion Tolkien left some things pretty unclear about the Witch King (which makes for a better story in this case!)

I think Gandalf would have kicked his butt though.

Gandalf said that the the Witch King is only a shadow of what he would be if Sauron regained the Ring.
But Gandalf was clearly focused and preparing for a great battle against him when the WK broke the Gate.
But Gandalf tells Pippin that he could/might have prevented much evil if he fought the WK and I didn't get the feeling that Gandalf was just wishful thinking about defeating the WK.

Glorfindel defeated an Balrog (yeah it killed him)
The Witch King fled before Glorfindel's advance on the field of battle.
Gandalf the Grey defeated a Balrog (yeah it killed him too but...)
Saruman seemed to fear the WitchKing from a more "he's going to tell on me to Sauron" fear than a fear of a direct physical contest.
Gandalf the White "defeated" Saruman.


And now Gandalf is even more powerful as the White.


How *would* Gandalf have fought him?
Nothing like the kung-fu abomination that Jackson vomited upon the screen.
It would have been more spiritual, a test of wills, the shattering of weapons and of course, a fantastic light show!

And the prediction that "not by the hand of Man shall he fall." doesn't save him from just getting defeated by Gandalf at the Gate.

Also is Gandalf a "man"?
True, he's an Istari in the form of a man but most "men" don't live for thousands of years like Gandalf did so technically.......
And getting one's butt kicked and sent back crying to Sauron doesn't mean "fall" in the "forever defeated" sense that Glorfindel meant.

[burgs]

The assorted balrog-slaying aside, I think it would have been curtains for old Gandalf if that cock hadn't crowed.

I don't think that the slaying of the Balrog can be set aside so easily. Gandalf said in The Lord of the Rings that - and I'm paraphrasing - black is always mightier than white. (Unfortunately, Amazon hasn't, or isn't allowed to, scan the contents of LOTR, so I can't pinpoint the exact place or words.) I always interpreted that as I interpreted his stated "fear" of Sauron when Manwe asked him to go to Middle-earth: the stated purpose of "Evil" (black) is the dominion of all things. They possess a drive, or a passion, that makes them stronger. On a lesser scale, this is essentially the same as Dumbledore and Voldemort - Voldemort was only stronger because he looked deeper for secrets that would give him control not only over his life, but everyone's. Dumbledore, for his earlier dalliances, did not.

You do correctly say that "Maia are not Maia are not Maia" - so perhaps this Balrog wasn't all that terrible. But I believe that being corrupted by Melkor, and having served him for so long and in such hideous fashion, that the Balrogs probably became greater in power than they were initially.

Gandalf, as the "Grey", slew this Balrog, and Gandalf the Grey was less in strength than Gandalf the White, who later stood ready to slay the Lord of the Nazgul.

Given that, the evidence in the Silmarillion suggests that Olorin was no where near as mighty as Sauron.

I'm not sure - "no where near as mighty"? I would agree that he may not have been Sauron's equal, but not to that degree.

[/quote="Wayfriend"]So ... perhaps Gandalf could have found a trick to use against the old Witch King. But excepting that, he probably would have been squished.[/quote]

It's difficult to imagine that the vastly "improved" Gandalf the White, who defeated a Balrog and broke Saruman's staff, would have fallen to a man, even if that man was the Witch King. Sauron wasn't in control of his ring, so the Witch King was on his own entirely. The ring given to him by Sauron would not - IMHO - been enough to slay Gandalf.

[wayfriend]

I don't think that the slaying of the Balrog can be set aside so easily. Gandalf said in The Lord of the Rings that - and I'm paraphrasing - black is always mightier than white.

Is this the quote you are looking for?

'No,' said Gandalf. 'That is not the road that you must take. I have spoken words of hope. But only of hope. Hope is not victory. War is upon us and all our friends, a war in which only the use of the Ring could give us surety of victory. It fills me with great sorrow and great fear: for much shall be destroyed and all may be lost. I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.'

White may ultimately win the war, but Black wins a lot of the battles. To wit: the entire Silmarillion.

But White ekes out a victory from time to time. Gandalf battled that balrog with wits as much as brute force. Starting with destroying the bridge. In a head-to-head cage match he would not have been victorious, I feel sure.

It's difficult to imagine that the vastly "improved" Gandalf the White, who defeated a Balrog and broke Saruman's staff, would have fallen to a man, even if that man was the Witch King. Sauron wasn't in control of his ring, so the Witch King was on his own entirely. The ring given to him by Sauron would not - IMHO - been enough to slay Gandalf.

Well, it all comes down to how mighty was Sauron without his ring in that age. In the end, I have to conclude that he was very mighty. Yes, even despite being lessened by evil deeds in moral lands, and the loss of the ring, and acting through the nazgul as a proxy. Surely the White Council would have acted more directly otherwise. Surely the Valar would have sent someone less subtle and more blatantly puissant otherwise.

And then, there was that prophecy. In that sense, Gandalf could not have slain him, either.

- - - - -

In the long run, Gandalf did defeat the Witch King. He it was who rallied the Last Defense at Minus Tirith, and brought in disparate forces from far lands in the nick of time. He is ultimately responsible for Merry and Eowyn being on the fields of the Pellenor that day.

That was Gandalfs power - not direct force, but in swaying the hearts of men. And it was by that power that he defeated the Witch King. Indirectly, and not solely. But nevertheless.

[Zarathustra]

But White ekes out a victory from time to time. Gandalf battled that balrog with wits as much as brute force. Starting with destroying the bridge. In a head-to-head cage match he would not have been victorious, I feel sure.

The battle didn't end at the bridge. I thought a "head-to-head cage match" is exactly what they fought from the roots of the mountain to its peak. And then Gandalf won (though his body was broken). And, as Burgs points out, this was The Grey, not The White.

I don't think Gandalf could have beaten Sauron . . . but Isildur managed to cut off his ring finger, and he was a "mere" mortal. And Fingolfin (is that the right Elf?) put up a good showing against Morgoth--who was much stronger than Sauron--forcing him to retreat back into Angband. So sometimes the underdog can surprise you. At the very least, it would have been a good fight.

I think that when Gandalf said "black is mightier than white still," he could have been referring to the total power of Sauron, including all servants and armies. They couldn't expect a miracle out of Gandalf.

[amanibhavam]

It is interesting to see what Tolkien said on this matter.

But in this 'mythology' all the 'angelic' powers concerned with this world were capable of many degrees of error and failing between the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron, and the fainéance of some of the other higher powers or 'gods'. The 'wizards' were not exempt, indeed being incarnate were more likely to stray, or err. Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.
That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' – no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but in one or two cases in the War (in Vol. III) he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Faramir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgûl to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed — and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands. In the end before he departs for ever he sums himself up: 'I was the enemy of Sauron'. He might have added: 'for that purpose I was sent to Middle-earth'. But by that he would at the end have meant more than at the beginning. He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lórien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.

Also later, in letter #246:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron] – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

[Zahir]

Within the world of LOTR, Gandalf the Grey is indeed mighty (the Wizards being essentially angels clothed in flesh) and Gandalf the White is mightier still. So much is true both of films and book.

The difference between book and films (in this issue) is just how powerful Gandalf the White and how powerful the Witch King of Angmar (whose armies were defeated, but is still known by that name long after Angmar has ceased to exist).

In the films, the Witch King is portrayed as much more mighty and formidable. One assumes the power of the Rings and Sauron himself infuses all the Ringwraiths towards the purpose of dominance and destruction. In comparative terms, the Witch King is a more powerful warrior than Gandalf the White in the films.

Personally, this does not bother me. To some extent films must be painted with bolder strokes than literature. Paraphrasing Alan Moore, reading books is a leisurely process over which you the reader have a lot of control. Films, on the other hand, are a roller coaster of sound and image coming at you at several dozen frames per second. Heightening the jeopardy in this way seems a perfectly acceptable adaptation to make the story more visceral and clear to audience members--especially those who haven't read the book. If the film didn't work for them, then it failed.

The tricky thing about the confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch King is that it is unresolved. Neither one of them seemed (in the book) seemed at all likely to back down, and each had an army backing them up. While I think in Tolkien's world the fact Gandalf inspired his followers while Sauron (in this case via his puppet the Witch King) terrified them lends deeper strength to the former, it is also true the latter had much greater numbers. On the other hand, in the book, the Witch King lacked his fellow Nazgul as a backup.

I suspect the answer cannot help but be unanswerable. True, Gandalf was not a man, and he might have vanquished or at least repulsed the Witch King. Or the raw force behind the Witch King might have won the day, forcing Gandalf and Gondor's defenders back. Could Gandalf the White be bested? Could he be killed, even by someone less mighty than himself? Methinks the answer to that one is "yes," which does not of course mean such would have happened.

Frankly, this seems an interesting unanswerable question.

[Bran Pendragon]

Gandalf himself was quite unsure of whether he could better the Witch King - "against some powers I am yet to tested" (of the top of my head). It seems pretty clear he could best, or at least drive off, the other Nazgul, but the Witch King was not a clear answer at all. The Nazguls power was also variable - they were stronger at night, and no doubt, they were stronger when the mind and will of Sauron was focused on them as it would have been upon the Witch King during the confrontation with Gandalf.

I think Gandalf and the Witch King, in that circumstance, would have been very evenly matched.

Gandalf could not, without the One Ring, have challenged Sauron one-on-one. I think that is pretty clear from the text. For example, Gandalf says that he can't get in to Orthanc while Saruman is in there and determined not to come out. But he suggests that if Sauron came he would be able to force his way in. Similarly, he tells Gimli that he (Gandalf) is as dangerous a being as Gimli would ever meet, unless he was brought before the Dark Lord. Also, Gandalf (admittedly the Grey, not the White) was very closely matched to the Balrog, however, during the days of Morgoth's rule, he had many Balrogs, including their lord Gothmog, and yet Sauron was clearly the most powerful and terrible of his servants.

[Dromond]

But Gandalf had a ring of power... if I remenber right, Narya, most powerful of the three Elven rings. The most powerful, after the one.
I think he had enough to defeat the Witch King.

[mcnpauls]

So where did the Witch-King get his confidence?

Any thoughts?

I think this is an interesting question, and one that I've never seen asked before.

I suspect the Witch-King did not really know the nature of Gandalf at all. My suspicion is that he (and probably Sauron as well) did not actually know that Gandalf, like Sauron, was also a Maia. I suspect they thought he was some kind of good man who had extended his life via lore gathered over long years, or perhaps a special kind of elf, who had aged through difficult labours, but without realising he was an angelic spirit.

Even if the Witch-King did know Gandalf was a Maia in human form, I'm absolutely sure he had no inkling of Gandalf's power level or that he was in a new White manifestation.

Bear in mind, too, that it says in the Silmarillion that Gandalf was the wisest of all the Maia, therefore, though not perhaps the mightiest, his smarts would give him an advantage over almost any conceivable opponent except Sauron, and in his thousands of years incarnate in Middle earth - even in his lesser Grey form - he had become a truly formidable warrior (amply demonstrated in both the Hobbit and the Fellowship of the Ring). back up all of that with one of the three Eleven rings, and I believe he would have been able to defeat the Witch-King.

[Zarathustra]

And now to finally settle this issue ...

"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. ...

"Do I not say truly, Gandalf," said Aragorn at last, "that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I? And this I also say: you are our captain and our banner. The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him. ...

I don't think it could be said of either Gandalf or Aragorn that they had a penchant for exaggeration or bragging. I believe this is Tolkien literally telling us that Gandalf the White is now the second most powerful being in all of Middle Earth.

[DrPaul]

I think the quotes that amanibhavam provides give us the answer to the question.

The key thing to remember is that Gandalf and Sauron are not only, or even mainly, engaged in either a military struggle or a struggle of contending theurgies. They are engaged in a moral struggle for the "hearts and minds", as it were, of the inhabitants of Middle Earth. Sauron's goal is not just to dominate the inhabitants of Middle Earth but to corrupt them and receive their homage. Gandalf's mission in Middle Earth is not to resist evil or rescue its inhabitants from evil, but to inspire them to understand good and evil and to find the courage to resist evil.

If Sauron sought only brute conquest of Middle Earth, why would he have many thousands of warriors of Rhun, Harad and Khand doing so much of the fighting for him, rather than simply breeding/manufacturing orcs, trolls, wargs and other creatures with such enhanced fighting capabilities and in such vast numbers that physical resistance to them would be futile? Quite simply, because it would have been a far bigger victory for him morally if he had accomplished his ends through the voluntarily given service of corrupted or deluded Children of Eru than through the overwhelming might of his tools.

On the other side of the ledger, it was a far greater moral victory for Gandalf to have inspired two mortals (Eowyn and Merry) to display courage above and beyond the call of duty in resisting evil and bringing about the Witch-King's demise than to have called upon whatever secret powers he had in reserve to do what mortals were unwilling or unable to do for themselves. (Of course the qualification to this point is that, when Eowyn and Theoden are borne into Minas Tirith, Gandalf expresses regret that Denethor's final madness had prevented him from intervening in the struggle against the Witch-King on the battlefield.)