What is so special about the ring?

Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

Moderators: dlbpharmd, High Lord Tolkien

Post Reply
UrSteve
Servant of the Land
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:24 pm

What is so special about the ring?

Post by UrSteve »

I'm sure this has probably come up before but I've probably missed it..

We all know white gold does not exist naturally in The Land but it's fairly common in our world. So Roger wants Linden to give him TC's ring and he can't take it because it has to be given. Is it ever explained why Roger can't get another ring (or would any white gold artifact suffice) that would truly belong to him? Is the significance in the fact that TC's ring is a wedding band?
User avatar
Vraith
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 10621
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm
Location: everywhere, all the time

Re: What is so special about the ring?

Post by Vraith »

UrSteve wrote:I'm sure this has probably come up before but I've probably missed it..

We all know white gold does not exist naturally in The Land but it's fairly common in our world. So Roger wants Linden to give him TC's ring and he can't take it because it has to be given. Is it ever explained why Roger can't get another ring (or would any white gold artifact suffice) that would truly belong to him? Is the significance in the fact that TC's ring is a wedding band?
Heh...yea, it's been tussled/examined/interpreted all over the place.
Wedding band certainly is important.
Roger's need [I think...I don't know if anyone else does] is cuz, once TC goes there, becomes what he becomes, PARTICULAR white gold becomes important...if someone else had been chosen in the beginning THEIR white gold would be the important stuff.

Just a thing that seems like a nitpick, but exploring/delving leads other ways, I have fun bringing up: white gold isn't natural in our world, either.
it isn't natural anywhere. It's an alloy, it both merges and divides.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
User avatar
deer of the dawn
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 6758
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:48 pm
Location: Jos, Nigeria
Contact:

Post by deer of the dawn »

Don't forget it must be TC's wedding band (and Joan's by extension). Otherwise, Roger could have got down to Costco and bought himself a white gold band and ruled the Land without all the fuss. Mhoram told Covenant, "You are the white gold."
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. -Philo of Alexandria

ahhhh... if only all our creativity in wickedness could be fixed by "Corrupt a Wish." - Linna Heartlistener
User avatar
lucimay
Lord
Posts: 15043
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:17 pm
Location: Mott Wood, Genebakis
Contact:

Post by lucimay »

deer of the dawn wrote:Don't forget it must be TC's wedding band (and Joan's by extension). Otherwise, Roger could have got down to Costco and bought himself a white gold band and ruled the Land without all the fuss. Mhoram told Covenant, "You are the white gold."
exactly. in fact...i'll go one step further and say that the ring is only important if one THINKS it's important. Covenant is the alloy, the merged, the contradiction, the oxymoron, the white gold. therefore, the ring is not really necessary which is what everyone was trying to tell him all along.
the ring is a way for him to focus his power. i don't think it actually holds any power itself, which is why it must be Covenant's ring.
am i making sense? lol :lol:
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
User avatar
dlbpharmd
Lord
Posts: 14460
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:27 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post by dlbpharmd »

Any white gold taken to the Land would have the same power as Covenant's and Joan's wedding rings, so long as it's held by its rightful wielder.

To back this up, please see this post regarding a Q&A we had with SRD a few years ago:

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 460#796460

When Roger demanded Covenant's ring from Linden, he was just being a petulant child. His attitude was, "The ring is mine, I want it!" He hates his father and would love nothing more than to destroy the Land with his father's ring.
Image
User avatar
SkurjMaster
<i>Elohim</i>
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:58 pm

The Ring

Post by SkurjMaster »

It still has to be both. I.e., if it was not important that it was Covenants ring, then Foul could have summoned anyone from our world with a white gold ring. Or why couldn't he just have transferred the ring itself? The 'rules' must dictate that he summon a person. Someone with volition and therefore the ability to choose. Still, why Covenant? Was there some kind of mutual choice for the Creator and the Despiser? Were they limited one by the other, or was it always going to be Coventant? I can only conclude that it apparently had to be Covenant's ring because it was COVENANT'S.
User avatar
Orlion
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 6637
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
Location: Getting there...

Post by Orlion »

Metals, in of themselves, seem to have great power in the Land. At least gold and its alloys. White gold does have power in of itself and can be wielded by some lorewise/powerful individual in destructive means. However, they can not destroy the Arch of Time unless Covenant, essentially, relinquishes his own hold on the ring. I believe this is because (purely from a LC prospective) Covenant is/was part of the Arch of Time. He is not only figuratively white gold because of his conflicting interests, desires, etc... he is/was/will be quite literally the glue that holds the Arch together, and unless he steps aside/wills it, the Arch can not be destroyed.

From a First Chronicles perspective, it is because it is his dream/he is the person that the Creator also permitted to be drawn into the Land.
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
User avatar
dlbpharmd
Lord
Posts: 14460
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:27 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post by dlbpharmd »

Foul couldn't just take a ring because it had to be freely given.
Image
User avatar
Orlion
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 6637
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
Location: Getting there...

Post by Orlion »

dlbpharmd wrote:Foul couldn't just take a ring because it had to be freely given.
True, but it also seems he can not bring any yahoo into the Land with a white gold ring.
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
bikebryan
Ramen
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:28 am

Post by bikebryan »

Orlion wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:Foul couldn't just take a ring because it had to be freely given.
True, but it also seems he can not bring any yahoo into the Land with a white gold ring.
Remember, though, that Foul and no hand in WHO was being summoned at the start. He showed Drool how to use the Staff and guided him in the summoning, but it was Drool who chose and summoned Covenant. IIRC, Mhoram pointed this out to Covenant and believed that the Creator had a hand in this.
User avatar
shadowbinding shoe
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 1477
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:33 am

Post by shadowbinding shoe »

bikebryan wrote:
Orlion wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:Foul couldn't just take a ring because it had to be freely given.
True, but it also seems he can not bring any yahoo into the Land with a white gold ring.
Remember, though, that Foul and no hand in WHO was being summoned at the start. He showed Drool how to use the Staff and guided him in the summoning, but it was Drool who chose and summoned Covenant. IIRC, Mhoram pointed this out to Covenant and believed that the Creator had a hand in this.
Drool summoned a white gold wielder, not Covenant specifically.

But before the summoning begins Covenant meets two people who seem to be possessed (or something of the sort) by Lord Foul and the Creator. So someone chose covenant before the summoning began. Considering the time discrepancies between Covenant's world and the Land, they were there for Covenant to see long before Drool started his summoning. I think it's possible to calculate the amount of time that passed between Drool discovering the Staff and Covenant's summoning from the interval between him seeing those two and the car accident.
User avatar
dlbpharmd
Lord
Posts: 14460
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:27 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post by dlbpharmd »

But before the summoning begins Covenant meets two people who seem to be possessed (or something of the sort) by Lord Foul and the Creator.
What? Please elaborate.
Image
bikebryan
Ramen
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:28 am

Post by bikebryan »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
bikebryan wrote:
Orlion wrote: True, but it also seems he can not bring any yahoo into the Land with a white gold ring.
Remember, though, that Foul and no hand in WHO was being summoned at the start. He showed Drool how to use the Staff and guided him in the summoning, but it was Drool who chose and summoned Covenant. IIRC, Mhoram pointed this out to Covenant and believed that the Creator had a hand in this.
Drool summoned a white gold wielder, not Covenant specifically.

But before the summoning begins Covenant meets two people who seem to be possessed (or something of the sort) by Lord Foul and the Creator. So someone chose covenant before the summoning began. Considering the time discrepancies between Covenant's world and the Land, they were there for Covenant to see long before Drool started his summoning. I think it's possible to calculate the amount of time that passed between Drool discovering the Staff and Covenant's summoning from the interval between him seeing those two and the car accident.
I've been rereading LFB. I don't recall him meeting but ONE person before his summoning, and that was "the old man in the ochre robe" holding the BEWARE sign. I think it's a safe bet that was the Land's Creator making his one reach out to TC. He never met anybody from the "flip" side of that coin before his summoning.
bikebryan
Ramen
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:28 am

Post by bikebryan »

I've been re-reading LFB and in the first or second chapter it's discussed how much of a contradiction Covenant is to himself. Not wanting rage but constantly possessed by it. Desiring the company of others but also dreading it.

White Gold was also described as a contradiction in the land. Putting this all together, I think that it HAD to be Covenant summoned to pull this off initially, as he WAS the white gold - conflicted and contradictory. It was him and he was it. The ring was just an expression of the power that HE was.
User avatar
shadowbinding shoe
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 1477
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:33 am

Post by shadowbinding shoe »

dlbpharmd wrote:
But before the summoning begins Covenant meets two people who seem to be possessed (or something of the sort) by Lord Foul and the Creator.
What? Please elaborate.
There is of course the man in the ochre robes that gives him the ethical question of the following books thaht is a representative of the Creator.

I remembered there being another man, an evangelical priest that gave Covenant a baleful look that stabbed him to the core in a somewhat unnatural way. Couldn't find it when I just looked in the book but I wasn't very thorough. There is however a definite Lord Foul lurking within the "Beware" sign the M.I.O.R carries. The description of the eyes Covenant has a vision of when looking at the sign can only be Foul's. (I speculated that the other man I remembered was the leader of the hand-mutilators cult in the 2nd chronicles)

There's also a boy that gives Covenant the ethical flyer on the m.i.o.r orders. He seemed forced to the deed against his will. Not sure what he means metaphorically speaking.
Stevo
Servant of the Land
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:35 pm

Post by Stevo »

One thing is certain: the ring in itself does contain power. In the Illearth War, Hile Troy takes the ring and starts to pull power from it right before the Forestal stops him. Then TC takes the ring back. He gave it to Troy, but Troy did not give it back. Just something to consider. There is certainly something in the willful giving of the ring ... but is it possible to give a part of yourself, which would be required if TC was the white gold.

I'm reading The One Tree right now (just started), but it my memory is correct, I thought Linden used the ring without TC even giving it to her. Am I wrong on this?
User avatar
Vraith
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 10621
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm
Location: everywhere, all the time

Post by Vraith »

Stevo wrote:One thing is certain: the ring in itself does contain power. In the Illearth War, Hile Troy takes the ring and starts to pull power from it right before the Forestal stops him. Then TC takes the ring back. He gave it to Troy, but Troy did not give it back. Just something to consider. There is certainly something in the willful giving of the ring ... but is it possible to give a part of yourself, which would be required if TC was the white gold.

I'm reading The One Tree right now (just started), but it my memory is correct, I thought Linden used the ring without TC even giving it to her. Am I wrong on this?
IIRC, you are right on all of that. There's been talk elsewhere about rightful wielders, and who it might be...and how TC "being" the white gold affects that. Hile is as good a choice for rightful as anyone, [or was once, see my "but" below] since IIRC he is the first person TC gives it to who accepts it. [many have suggested Lord Foul, that's a good case too] My personal take is that TC is the white gold...but that is something he became, an apotheosis, not what he always was. [though the time looping/being in the Arch makes that another paradoxical thing to track].
But...is giving enough? Is giving PLUS giving "part of yourself" enough [if it is possible] Or does becoming the rightful also require the total extinguishing of the giver's existence? Very good question you brought out...I sure don't know, don't think anyone does/can at this point. Maybe never.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
User avatar
SkurjMaster
<i>Elohim</i>
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:58 pm

Mechanics and rules

Post by SkurjMaster »

The discussion of 'rightful wielders' reminds me that this is where story tellers often get in trouble. The rules or mechanics of wielder-ship can be easily violated with a literal viewpoint. This also enforces the notion and SRD's admission that the second and third Chronicles create some logical inconsistencies with the first, the two different cosmologies being the most threatening.

Another reply to the question of the special-ness of the ring is that its existence is the most consistent thing between the First Chrons and the Second and Third. The Worm cosmology is at odds with the Creator cosmology. The Worm cosmology underpins the whole of the Second and Third Chrons. In fact, until SRD brings the Creator back into the story, it appears that he has jettisoned a Creator character (in the sense of the First Chrons), he needs the ring (and Linden now) to maintain the link between the First Chrons and the Second and Third.
User avatar
Cord Hurn
Servant of the Band
Posts: 7630
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:08 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Cord Hurn »

The white gold ring of Thomas Covenant became a talisman of power for the Land's world when the Creator gave the ring back to TC in LFB chapter 2. Covenant immediately knows that it feels different.

Apparently not just anybody with a white gold ring from our world will have power in the Land (Joan counts, though, and I'm not sure why other than her relation with TC.)
Post Reply

Return to “Against All Things Ending”