WGW - Chapter 1: The Master's Scar

TWL, TOT, WGW

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srtrout
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Post by srtrout »

Guilt.

Y'all are discussing guilt at length, and then Covenant's power choices as well.

Could he have put his guilt behind him ? Did he have some other reasonable choices? (If this were a video game, is there another way to save the Land other than the one he ultimately chooses? Game over!)

Guilt enters this mighty work at its very beginning. Initially, the guilt would seem to be false: the townspeople accuse him of being guilty for his disease - they act as if it were his fault he carries it. They also act as if he were guilty of exposing them to it, when he actually is not - it is not highly infectious.

That's guilt in the "real world".

We then get into even worse guilt in the Land with the rape. That guilt stays with him throughout the Chronicles. I think many of us men fear our own strength and sexuality - how terrible it would be to be guilty of raping a young & trusting woman. I would love to be able to read the book TC wrote in the real world "Or I Would Sell My Soul for Guilt" !

In the second Chronicles, the analogy for guilt is intensified with the poison from the spider; it not only infects him but is actually made into an alloy that remains part of him & the White Gold in the Camorra of the Giants.

That's not enough - just about every character heaps more guilt on him. The gracious Giants accuse him of not caring about them; Findail accuses him of wanting to destroy the Earth; the Haruchai become suspicious of him every other page or so.

So, he walks on saddled with guilt throughout the story.

I again cannot help but see this guilt and poison as a metaphor for the general human condition. Call it sin, inadequacy, or human nature, we all bear our psychological and spiritual burdens. As I've said before in these forums, I think some of this writing directly reflects the influnce of SRD's Christian upbringing and his own reaction to the problems of dealing with sin/guilt.

Do we react with power? Or, do we deny the presence of guilt/sin/inadequacy? If we react by surrendering, is that triumph or failure?

I have a friend who refused to read these books because he didn't want to read about guilt. I specifically read and re-read them because I do want to read about guilt.

(I feel guilty because I am at work and really should be getting some done rather than writing here!)

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Earthblood
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Post by Earthblood »

should have, could have, would have.......

TC always seems to make what appear to be the wrong decisions through out the series (asking the Elohim to unlock his mind, giving Pietten hurtloam to mention a couple). But the consequences of those desicions by him are unforseen at the time, but in the end seem to always work toward the greater goal of carrying on the quest or defeating LF, don't they?

Each person makes thier own decisions & is thereby responsible for him/herself. One might say Honniscrave was inconsiderate (I don't think so..) in even asking TC to perform this act for his brother, but it was a decision he made to ask TC, and he is therefore as responsible as TC for the answer he receives.

As I said, all these "decisions" lead us toward the ultimate goal, we just can't see it at the time.

This is the genious of Stephen R. Donaldson!

As for why TC didn't offer Seadreamer's soul the caamora... read my sig!
"You're afraid of yourself."
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Post by duchess of malfi »

Great job in your disssction, as usual, Damelon. :) :)

Earthy said:
Each person makes thier own decisions & is thereby responsible for him/herself. One might say Honniscrave was inconsiderate (I don't think so..) in even asking TC to perform this act for his brother, but it was a decision he made to ask TC, and he is therefore as responsible as TC for the answer he receives.

As I said, all these "decisions" lead us toward the ultimate goal, we just can't see it at the time.

This is the genious of Stephen R. Donaldson!

Well said, Earthy! 8)
Love as thou wilt.

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Post by Cord Hurn »

Suddenly Honninscrave looked upward; and his gaze struck foreboding into Covenant's maimed empathy. His eyes under his heavy brows were fierce with extremity, and the new-cut lines around them were as intense as scars. "Therefore have I come to you," he said slowly, as if he could not see Covenant quailing. "I desire a restitution which is not within my power to perform. My fault must be assuaged.

"It is the custom of our people to give our dead to the sea. But Cable Seadreamer my brother has met his end in horror, and it will not release him. He is like the Dead of The Grieve, damned to his anguish. If his spirit is not given its caamora"--for an instant, his voice broke--"he will haunt me while one stone of the Arch of Time remains standing upon another."

Then his gaze fell to the floor. "Yet there is no fire in all the world that I can raise to give him surcrease. He is a Giant. Even in death, he is immune to flame."

At that, Covenant understood; and all his dreads came together in a rush: the apprehension which had crouched in him since Honninscrave had first said, If you do not release him; the terror of his doom, to destroy the Earth himself or to surrender it for destruction by ceding his ring to Lord Foul. The Despiser had said, The ill that you deem most terrible is upon you. Of your own volition you will give the white gold into my hand. Either that or bring down the Arch of Time. There was no way out. He was beaten. Because he had kept the truth from Linden, seeking to deny it. And Honninscrave asked--!

"You want me to cremate him?" Clenched fear made him harsh. "With my ring? Are you out of your mind?"

Honninscrave winced. "The Dead of The Grieve--" he began.

"No!" Covenant retorted. He had walked into a bonfire to save them from their reiterated hell; but risks like that were too great fro him now. He had already caused too much death. "After I sink the ship, I won't be able to stop!"

This is one of the moments in the Second Chronicles when I find myself feeling most displeased with Thomas Covenant. As others have posted here, TC could have given the ring to Linden to perform Seadreamer's healing. Heck, he could even have given it to Honninscrave and told him how to use his passion to unlock its power. And TC already showed restraint at the One Tree. TC accomplishes nothing here except to increase Honninscrave's pain and give himself something else to feel guilty about, nothing more.
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Post by wayfriend »

Okay. But after Coercri, it's really hard to criticize Covenant for a lack of compassion or a lack of generosity towards Giants. I am content to see Covenant's refusal as a temporary crisis of faith -- in himself. I think this refusal is meant to illustrate just how badly Covenant is devastated by what had happened. His withdrawal from Linden is another way. He doesn't believe in himself any more, he sees himself as a hopeless danger. Looking at it another way: had Covenant done what we all wanted him to do, it would seem like the catastrophe of the One Tree wasn't such a big thing.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

wayfriend wrote:Okay. But after Coercri, it's really hard to criticize Covenant for a lack of compassion or a lack of generosity towards Giants. I am content to see Covenant's refusal as a temporary crisis of faith -- in himself. I think this refusal is meant to illustrate just how badly Covenant is devastated by what had happened. His withdrawal from Linden is another way. He doesn't believe in himself any more, he sees himself as a hopeless danger. Looking at it another way: had Covenant done what we all wanted him to do, it would seem like the catastrophe of the One Tree wasn't such a big thing.
It does indeed serve to illustrate how shaken Covenant's faith is at this point, wayfriend! Still, he could have shown his lack of faith in himself by giving up the ring, as well.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

wayfriend wrote:Okay. But after Coercri, it's really hard to criticize Covenant for a lack of compassion or a lack of generosity towards Giants.

...And that is an especially good point! :ct19:
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Post by wayfriend »

Earthblood wrote:TC always seems to make what appear to be the wrong decisions through out the series .... But the consequences of those desicions by him are unforseen at the time, but in the end seem to always work toward the greater goal of carrying on the quest or defeating LF, don't they?!
This is what it always comes down to.

Indeed, Covenant often makes decisions that we feel we would not have made. I think, for the most part, Donaldson always explains the reasoning behind them. But it never seems to be enough for the reader - they always think that they would have done differently. The thing is, though, that Covenant is a man of principles. (His whole argument for Unbelief rests upon this.) And his principles rule his decisions more than his passions. And they work out because that's a good thing - maybe not in real life, but in Donaldson's world they do, because that's part of his story, too: the balance of passion and control.

[It's the whole ediface that the Hile Troy character foil is built upon. Troy follows his passions - doing what we the reader would do - and fails. This is meant to be salutary.]

I have no doubt that Covenant wanted to grant peace to Seadreamer and Honninscrave, and would have done anything towards that end. But his principles were also kicking him around at this time, and they were saying, there's nothing you can do with wild magic that's not too dangerous. Saving the world from himself was more important.

Of course, there are other principals that apply. The world won't be destroyed by choices like that. Covenant's grief keeps him from seeing this. Nevertheless, I see Covenant making a principles-over-passion choice here. This is hard to identify with unless you give the same weight to principles as Covenant does.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

wayfriend wrote:
Earthblood wrote:TC always seems to make what appear to be the wrong decisions through out the series .... But the consequences of those desicions by him are unforseen at the time, but in the end seem to always work toward the greater goal of carrying on the quest or defeating LF, don't they?!
This is what it always comes down to.

Indeed, Covenant often makes decisions that we feel we would not have made. I think, for the most part, Donaldson always explains the reasoning behind them. But it never seems to be enough for the reader - they always think that they would have done differently.
Guilty as charged! :lol:
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Post by Cord Hurn »

wayfriend wrote: [It's the whole ediface that the Hile Troy character foil is built upon. Troy follows his passions - doing what we the reader would do - and fails. This is meant to be salutary.]
Certainly, Troy's reaction to the Land and to Covenant's Unbelief is much as I think I would have reacted in his place.
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Post by wayfriend »

wayfriend wrote:This is meant to be salutary.
I said "salutary" (is beneficial) when I meant "admonitory" (serves a warning).
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