??'s for Ryzel

[Fist and Faith]

I'm curious about how popular the Viking mythology is in Norway today. I don't imagine it's a required subject in school, but do most people know a bit about the topic? Do most Norwegians know what <I>Gungnir</I> is?

I've heard that the language of Iceland is exactly as it was when the Vikings settled there, so they can still read things like <I>Egil's Saga</I>. (I heard the Iceland word for computer means something like "something that does something", and telephone is "string.") Is your language still very close to what it was back in those days? Or is it sort of like comparing my English to Shakespeare's? Or has it changed so much that you can't much read it?

And can you go to a store and buy a <I>mjolnir</I> necklace? I've been collecting them for years. One from the Norway pavillion in Disneyland/Epcot. One from a Renaissance Faire here in NY. Several from a Scandanavian gift shop in Mystic, CT. One from <I>Viking</I> magazine. It's not extremely easy getting them here, and I was curious if you can find them on every corner there, and such a collection would seem silly.

[Ryzel]

I will just dispense with the quoting for now and answer your questions in one post.

First: Viking mythology as such is not required in school, but the literature from which we get most of the information about it is partially on the required reading list for our schools so most people will recognize the more common names like Odin, Thor, Tyr, Loke etc. and know that Tor was the god of thunder etc. I do not think that you would find a lot of people that knows what gungnir is, as a matter of fact I am not certain myself but if I had to guess I would say that is was Odin's spear, the one that never misses.

Second: Iceland has been, and still is, a quite isolated place and thus they have managed to retain their language in a much closer form to old norse than any other language (possibly excepting faeroese). I think that there are significant differences between icelandic and old norse though, but I do not know how great they are. Also Iceland has made an effort not to borrow words from other languages into icelandic, but instead they have made new words as required this is why a computer is not called a computer in Iceland, as it is just about everywhere else.

Contemporary norwegian is very different from old norse, although it is still the same kind of language i.e. it is a language of verbs. The words we use are still similar in many ways, but we have lost the "kasus" of the substantives which means that now we use just the one form of those, like english. Old norse had four or five in common use, and possibly a few others, like german still has. Our great advantage in translating old sagas in alliterative verse is that many words still start with the same letter as they did a thousand years ago.

Mjolnir necklaces are not terribly common here (please note that the use of viking symbols by the nazis gave many of those symbols some bad associations) but I know one or two people who have one. I do not know where they got them, but I never thought that they would be all that difficult to find if I went looking for them. I do not wear any jewelry except my school ring and never go looking for it either so I have no idea how common they really are.

A quick search in the "Kvasir" search service reveals one norwegian online shop carrying necklaces of this sort.

www.norskviking.no/index.asp?status=1&id=4

but this site seems more promising if you are collecting the things

www.nordicarts.com/thors_hammers1.htm

Looks like a swedish site.

In conclusion I would have to say that they are obtainable but not really common here. Hope that answers your question.

[Fist and Faith]

I do not think that you would find a lot of people that knows what gungnir is, as a matter of fact I am not certain myself but if I had to guess I would say that is was Odin's spear, the one that never misses.

If you had to guess, you'd be right.

In conclusion I would have to say that they are obtainable but not really common here. Hope that answers your question.

Actually, it was all the linguistic and cultural stuff I was really interested in. And you answered them very well. Thanks! But I'll check out those sites for the heck of it. I don't much collect them any further, because there are only a few basic designs, and I don't need more copies of the same one. Maybe I'll see something different there though.

Thanks again.

[Ryzel]

If you had to guess, you'd be right.

My guess was just plain laziness as I was sitting four feet away from my copy of the norwegian translation of the elder Eddas.

However a check in the elder edda shows that Gungne is described as Odin's sword in the comments to one of the poems. The spear itself is never actually described in the poems. But everywhere I check on the net it is described as a spear.

[Sevothtarte]

Don't know if you can help me Ryzel, but I'm curious ... My real name is Torsten, more commonly spelled Thorsten. Some texts on etymology say it means "Hammer of Thor", some say it's "Thor" and "sten" = "stone" ... So am I his hammer or a stone in his shoe?

Or maybe I was named after an insult and it just means Thor is dumb as a brick ...

[Ryzel]

My initial assumption would be that your name is derived from "Thor" and "Stein" which I would take to mean Thor's Stone. I get the same result from www.behindthename.com, but if you have checked this before you already know this.

And you would also be correct in assuming that Thor was dumb as a brick. He is generally considered the most stupid of all the Aesir, but he makes up for it by being the one who makes the most effort to protect the humans (mostly by hunting monsters) and by generally being the strongest of the Aesir in battle. The legends say that he almost managed to lift the Midgard serpent once.

[Fist and Faith]

However a check in the elder edda shows that Gungne is described as Odin's sword in the comments to one of the poems. The spear itself is never actually described in the poems. But everywhere I check on the net it is described as a spear.

As far as I can tell, Odin's spear is not called <I>Gungnir</I> until Snorri. The only time the index of my translation of the elder edda (Lee M. Hollander) lists <I>Gungnir</I> in the actual text, it says, "...on gungnir's point...", and the notes say, "Othin's spear."

[Ryzel]

Ah, Snorre, I definitely have to get me a translation of the younger eddas.

Now for the linguistic angle: the "r" at the end is a specific form of the name. Unfortunately I cannot remember exactly what it means, but it only shows up in specific uses in sentences I think.

[Fist and Faith]

Now for the linguistic angle: the "r" at the end is a specific form of the name. Unfortunately I cannot remember exactly what it means, but it only shows up in specific uses in sentences I think.

Making myself understood in English is problem enough for me! lol You mentioned German. I took a year of it once, and was astounded to find that there are five forms of "the." (Is that right? der, die, den, das, dem) I love how phonetic German is, but that "the" thing is nuts!

On a new topic, from your part of the world, I have Poul Anderson's <U>Hrolf Kraki's Saga</U>. Do you know that character? Poul did a fantastic job of fleshing out the myths/legends. Another like that is <U>Red Branch</U>, by I have no idea who. That one is Irish myths, centered on Cuchulain.

[Sevothtarte]

I love how phonetic German is, but that "the" thing is nuts!

It's quite handy, since you can be more precise this way, can explain things in fewer words. In English, you don't know if a friend, teacher, whatever is male or female. In German, you know.
But it must be a hell to learn ...

Check this out: The Awful German Language by Mark Twain

[Ryzel]

It has been 15 years since I studied german now, but I still remember that there are different forms of the articles used. One for each gender and the plural forms. The norse 'R' form is something similar, showing that the name is being used in a specific manner.

I have not read Hrolf Kraki's Saga, but I have read The Broken Sword, Three Hearts and Three Lions and a few other by Anderson.

The Red Branch is celtic, a subject of which I know little. I think it was a group of warriors, like the king's guards or something.

[Fist and Faith]

The Red Branch is celtic, a subject of which I know little. I think it was a group of warriors, like the king's guards or something.

Yeah, something like that. I don't remember exactly either. It's been many years since I read it. Then I loaned it to my mother, and never saw it again. But when I found a book of those myths a couple years later, I was amazed that the book did such a good job of telling them, while filling in what happens in between. Again, like <U>Hrolf Kraki's Saga</U>.

[Ryzel]

It's quite handy, since you can be more precise this way, can explain things in fewer words. In English, you don't know if a friend, teacher, whatever is male or female. In German, you know.
But it must be a hell to learn ...

German is nothing. German has four forms (kasus) of the substantives used (nominativ, akkusativ, dativ and genetiv) which is the reason why there are these differences in the definite article. But other languages like finnish has sixteen (I think), russian has thirteen and the baltic states' languages has something similar. This means that they in some cases just have to say one word e.g. "cow", and you will immediately know that the cow is female and is walking away from the speaker and towards you.

For more thoughts on languages check out the books: Babel17 and The Languages of Pao.

[fightingmyinstincts]

Yeah Thor also managed to wrestle Old Age to her knees.....I love that story! Loki's a bitch though....usually I like the Trickster but this aspect bites....Sorry! One of the coolest thing...you know that story where the hero cooks the heart of a dragon and burns his finger, and then licks it and gains all this knowledge? There's a Celtic tale just like it about Taliesin the Chief of Bards....as a boy before he's a god he's set to watch a cauldron brewing Awen (literally, "flowing spirit" Inspiration, knowledge, etc) three drops fly out and scald his finger; he licks them and gain the Awen, so the goddess who charged him with the pot chases him in all these forms(he gains the ability to shapeshift) eats him, and he is reborn as Chief of Bards.....phew!

[Reisheiruhime]

Yeah, I've read that somewhere. Loved the story.

[Ryzel]

....Sorry! One of the coolest thing...you know that story where the hero cooks the heart of a dragon and burns his finger, and then licks it and gains all this knowledge?

I do not recognize that tale. Do you have any more details?