How would Terisa have felt if Geraden and Saddith had

[Cord Hurn]

Second clue: Terisa realizes she values Geraden as a person when she hears Elega talk about being betrothed to Geraden.

One flight of stairs took them to the level of the King's suite. Elega passed his high, carved door and took another stairway upward. "I would have been better pleased with one of his brothers," she continued. "All women seem to favor Artagel, and to see Wester is to love him. But both lack ambition. Nyle is more to my taste. Sadly, women are often given little say in these matters."

"What happened to your betrothal?"

"Oh, I flatly declined to marry him. He is quite impossible, Terisa." Elega made no effort now to conceal her scorn. "It is bad enough that he cannot be trusted to walk out of a room safely. But in addition he is such a failure. He has already been serving the Imagers for three years longer than any other Apt since the Congery was founded, and he is no nearer to a Master's chasuble than he was when he began.

"His determination must be respected--and his desire to better himself. But I am the daughter of Mordant's King, and I do not mean to spend my likfe cleaning sheds in the Care of Domne, or sweeping broken glass after Geraden's disasters.

"Do you know?" She giggled suddenly. The first time he was to be formally presented to my father--we had all ridden out to visit the Domne, some twelve or fourteen years ago now--he was so eager that he had no better sense than to attempt a shortcut across a log which spanned a pig wallow. When he reached us, he was carrying more filth on his person than he left in the wallow."

Terisa nearly laughed. She could imagine him as clearly as if she had been a witness, mud caked to his hair, his face, his clothes; water and fruit rinds dripping off him. He was exactly the sort of person to whom something like that would happen.

A second later, however, her emotions turned until she was close to tears. Poor guy, she murmured to herself. He deserves better.

"No, Terisa," Elega concluded, "Apt Geraden will make an honest husband for some dull woman with her mind in her belly, a strong passion for motherhood, and much tolerance for accidents. But I will not have him."

In silence, Terisa replied, That's your loss. She never said such things aloud.

Already this early in the Mordant's Need story Terisa values Geraden enough to empathize with him and think of him as good husband material, though she doesn't consciously dwell on these feelings.

[Cord Hurn]

Third clue: After Lebbick has questioned Terisa about the two dead Alend guards of Kragen's found in the lower levels of Orison on the morning after the secret meeting of the Lords of the Cares, she is shortly greeted by both Master Eremis and Apt Geraden. Deep down inside, she is far happier to see Geraden than Eremis, evn while some part of her still desires attention from Eremis.

She was having such fun that the quick knock at her door didn't interrupt her. "Come in!" she called without so much as pausing to wonder who might be there.

It was Master Eremis.

He had Geraden with him again.

The Apt wore a baffled expression: he didn't know why he was there. Nevertheless Terisa was instantly glad to see him. Although she couldn't tell him what she had just accomplished, she was free to smile at him, and she did that with unfamiliar pleasure.

He grinned back through his confusion, then shrugged in the direction of Master Eremis.

This is right before the three of them go to attend the Congery's summoning of the champion, though Geraden doesn't know that is what Eremis is planning. Anyway, I want to point out that by this time in the story, Terisa and Geraden share an ever-tightening emotional bond, despite Terisa still experiencing some surface confusion as to how she feels about Geraden and much else that is going on.

[Cord Hurn]

Fourth clue: Terisa finds she isn't the slightest bit amused and even feels anxiety at the finding out Saddith desired making love to Geraden. This scene is after Terisa and Geraden accompany Lebbick and Havelock to the imprisoned callat, and Havelock kills that callat with solar fire from his small mirror. Terisa returns to consciousness in her familiar bed in the peacock rooms of Orison.

She coughed at a throat full of gluey cotton. "How long have I been out?"

"Long enough." [This is Geraden answering.]

Saddith gave a light laugh. "My lady, the Apt is sotted with you. Every moment that your eyes are not open for him is 'long enough' to fill him with alarm. You have had a much-needed rest. When you have had food and"--she wrinkled her nose--" a bath, you will feel well enough to be amused by his concern."

Terisa smelled the faint rotten scent. It seemed to be in her hair. And in--Her coat was draped over the back of another chair, but she was still wearing her clothes under the blankets. The smell was in her shirt and pants as well. When she lifted the covers, it wafted delicately into her face.

She pushed the blankets away and let Saddith and Geraden steady her in a sitting position on the edge of the bed. A bright fire crackled in her hearth, and the creature had burned--

"What happened?"she asked.

Geraden's smile twisted. "Not much. You passed out. Adept Havelock left. The Castellan swore at everybody. One of the physicians and I brought you here. He said you were going to be all right, but I didn't believe him." He looked away. "Saddith has been telling me her life story to keep me from screaming while you slept."

"Why did--?" Terisa ran her fingers into her hair, then grimaced at the odor which clung to them. She had to breathe deeply to make her head stop spinning. "Why did Adept Havelock kill that poor--?"

At that, Geraden's expression turned harsh. "He's crazy. Even if we knew why he does anything, it wouldn't make sense."

"I can explain it," said Saddith in a teasing tone. "If the rumors are true, the Adept has not had a woman since he returned from Cadwal." With her elbow, she nudged Geraden's ribs. "All men become madmen if they do not bed women often enough."

For no very clear reason, Geraden appeared to be blushing.

Terisa had to get the creature's immolation out of her mind. She had to get the stink out of her clothes and hair. Ignoring Saddith, she said to Geraden, "I don't understand. Why didn't those Imagers who worked with Vagel translate the army he wanted? What research did they have to do?"

Promptly, as if he were relieved by her question, he answered, "I don't have any way of knowing, of course--but I'm pretty sure I can guess. We've talked about language." He watched Terisa's face intently. "When the arch-Imager's cabal came up with an Image of what looked to them like the ideal warrior, they had no way of knowing whether they would be able to talk to him. They didn't believe the question of language would be resolved by the translation itself. That's what they needed to research."

He snorted a sour laugh. "It's funny, in a way. Either High King Festten or the arch-Imager could have an entire army of those creatures, if they had just believed the same thing King Joyse believes. They might have been able to beat him.

"Now we'll never know the answer," he concluded bitterly.

Terisa nodded, letting Geraden push back the memories she wanted to escape from. For her part, however, Saddith didn't appear particularly pleased by this turn of the conversation. As soon as Geraden stopped, she said, "My lady, I have no food or bathwater ready for you. I did not know when you would awaken. But both can be provided almost immediately. With your permission, I will go to bring what you need."

"Thanks." As usual, Terisa's eyes were drawn to Saddith's open blouse and bursting breasts. She made an effort to raise her head so that she felt less like she was talking to Saddith's chest. "I would like that."

In response, Saddith swung a saucy gaze at Geraden. "Be warned," she said slyly. "I will be back too soon for what you desire. Even the hottest youth must have a certain amount of time."

Laughing, she left the rooms.

Terisa eased herself experimentally to her feet.

In a hurry to steady her, Geraden jerked forward. Unfortunately, he missed his balance and nearly fell onto the bed. Terisa found herself holding him up rather than being supported.

Swearing at himself, he pulled away. Apparently he had lost his balance in more ways than one. Now he looked like he was on the verge of tears.

Geraden? What's the matter? She wasn't sure of what she was seeing. Or she wasn't sure of herself. She wasn't in particularly good shape. In fact, she felt lousy. Where was the Geraden who always took care of her as if she were the most important person in his life?

Inanely, she said the first words she could think of that had nothing to do with what she felt. "I thought I saw you blush. What were you and she really doing while I was asleep?"

He stiffened. Retreating to his chair allowed him to turn his face away from her for a moment. When he sat down, his features were set into hard lines, as if he were angry. Nevrtheless she knew he wasn't angry. His eyes were hot with grief.

"I don't understand that woman," he muttered without meeting her gaze. "I mean, I understand. I'm not as ignorant as she thinks. It just doesn't make sense to me." He scowled at the vista of his confusion. "While you were asleep, she wasn't telling me her life story. She was trying to persuade me to bed her right here on the floor."

For some reason, Terisa didn't find this amusing. All at once, the muscles around her heart felt tight.

If Saddith and Geraden had had a carnal liason, I feel pretty sure that Terisa would be angry about it, but also realize she feels both love and lust for Geraden, and would try to get him to be her Significant Other. (Of course, as Ducchess of Malfi pointed out on this thread years ago, Geraden isn't the type to go for someone as brazen as Saddith, but I'm playing a "what-if" game, here.)

Terisa would find that she wanted Geraden very badly as a lover and friend if she felt she was facing the prospect of losing Geraden to Saddith. Terisa would just HAVE to have him , and even if she and Geraden would be clumsy as to how they got together as dedicated lovers (due to their relative inexperience), it would happen. We know it DOES happen in the second book, but it would have happened quicker this way.

[Shuram Gudatetris]

Very astute observations, Cord Hurn! Bravo

When I originally pondered this question, my thought was that it would drive a further wedge between them, but that their coming together (Geraden and Terisa) was still inevitable. Actually, I considered that it might drive Terisa into Eremis' bed--another of Saddith's lovers, but one who had shown clear intent and desire for Terisa. She would feel a stronger need to learn a few things, like "what men do with women" so that maybe she could learn for herself how Saddith gets what she wants. And if Terisa went to Eremis, then Geraden would in turn be hurt, and at that point, he could hardly interrupt them if he, too, was up to scandalous things. But all this would simply push things further down the road, while they would always be destined to come together.

I never considered that it would speed things up! You present a very convincing argument.

[Cord Hurn]

I thank you, Shuram! What isn't clear to me is how Eremis would react if Geraden and Saddith had sex. He might be angry initially, but I'm sure he would see a way to use such an occurrence to manipulate Terisa into betraying Geraden. We know Eremis was interested in bedding Terisa, but he was even more interested in getting rid of her if he felt he couldn't control her. I think in the chapter 9 scene of TMOHD where Gereaden kept interrupting Eremis with Terisa in Eremis' quarters was more than an interruption of Eremis' carnal desires. I think Eremis was going to have horrors translated against Terisa as soon as he was done using her (we know from a scene early in AMRT that one of Eremis' rooms is a translation point).

At times, such as when Eremis had Terisa attend the meeting with the Lords of the Cares and Kragen, it seemed that Eremis was just setting her up to be killed, and he'd decided to forego having her as a lover. It's hard to say if he'd have kept Terisa around if she showed signs of being totally on his side. Master Eremis is mendacious, as High King Festten himself observes. It's really hard for me to be sure what he'd do if Geraden and Saddith had a liason.

[DocTox]

Maybe this is just a bit snarky (blame it on late night posting), but if Geraden *had* allowed himself to be seduced by Saddith, well, Terisa was asleep at the time.... What happens in Orison...

Nevermind that Terisa was rounding second base with Eremis on more than one occasion prior to that, so it wasn't like she had complete moral high ground here.

More seriously, I don't think that virginity was an essential requirement for the romance between Terisa and Geraden to work (imagine if Geraden had an amusing backstory about a clumsy first, but failed, romance; or if Terisa had a left-behind and now pretty much forgotten first-love in the real world) - that would not have world-shattering impact on the overall narrative. But I think that choice of partner (i.e., Eremis or Saddith, respectively), would have substantially changed our perspective on their characters quality of judgment and overall innocence - both essential for the Disney-like way these particular characters are crafted (I hope that's not interpreted as any kind of slight on SRD's excellent character development and world-building in Mordant's Need series).

[Cord Hurn]

Maybe this is just a bit snarky (blame it on late night posting), but if Geraden *had* allowed himself to be seduced by Saddith, well, Terisa was asleep at the time.... What happens in Orison...

Maybe no difference would have been made except to Geraden's self-respect, but there is always the possibility of Terisa waking up during the proceedings.

[Cord Hurn]

Nevermind that Terisa was rounding second base with Eremis on more than one occasion prior to that, so it wasn't like she had complete moral high ground here.

Good point. Terisa certainly can't claim much moral high ground here, other than if it happened it would be done in "her" room (actually the property of the King, of course) while she was unconscious, implying a lack of respect to her.

[Cord Hurn]

More seriously, I don't think that virginity was an essential requirement for the romance between Terisa and Geraden to work (imagine if Geraden had an amusing backstory about a clumsy first, but failed, romance; or if Terisa had a left-behind and now pretty much forgotten first-love in the real world) - that would not have world-shattering impact on the overall narrative. But I think that choice of partner (i.e., Eremis or Saddith, respectively), would have substantially changed our perspective on their characters quality of judgment and overall innocence - both essential for the Disney-like way these particular characters are crafted (I hope that's not interpreted as any kind of slight on SRD's excellent character development and world-building in Mordant's Need series).

Yes, I don't think either of them would have had to be virgins for their overall character development (more specifically, their romantic development) to have proceeded, other than the initial awkwardness that occurred when Terisa and Geraden finally did it in book 2. But we would as readers certainly have seen them as less innocent, no doubt. And I agree, SRD's character development and world-building in Mordant's Need is very good, and no slight whatsoever is interpreted in your post, DocTox.

[shadowbinding shoe]

That offer Saddith made, would it be so easy for Geraden to turn down if it wasn't so risky? Say, if she offered to do it in the next room with the door to Terisa's bedroom locked? What if she allowed him to call her Terisa of Morgan while they were doing it?

[Cord Hurn]

That offer Saddith made, would it be so easy for Geraden to turn down if it wasn't so risky? Say, if she offered to do it in the next room with the door to Terisa's bedroom locked? What if she allowed him to call her Terisa of Morgan while they were doing it?

Getting back to that quote from TMOHD Chapter 23:

Swearing at himself, he pulled away. Apparently he had lost his balance in more ways than one. Now he looked like he was on the verge of tears.

Geraden? What's the matter? She wasn't sure of what she was seeing. Or she wasn't sure of herself. She wasn't in particularly good shape. In fact, she felt lousy. Where was the Geraden who always took care of her as if she were the most important person in his life?

Inanely, she said the first words she could think of that had nothing to do with what she felt. "I thought I saw you blush. What were you and she really doing while I was asleep?"

He stiffened. Retreating to his chair allowed him to turn his face away from her for a moment. When he sat down, his features were set into hard lines, as if he were angry. Nevertheless she knew he wasn't angry. His eyes were hot with grief.

"I don't understand that woman," he muttered without meeting her gaze. "I mean, I understand. I'm not as ignorant as she thinks. It just doesn't make sense to me." He scowled at the vista of his confusion. "While you were asleep, she wasn't telling me her life story. She was trying to persuade me to bed her right here on the floor."

It's hard for me to be certain, Shoe, but I think Geraden is too filled with grief about Nyle's arrest and with guilt for the role he has played in capturing Nyle to be in any mood to accept Saddith's offer. But, maybe Saddith offering to retreat elsewhere would have been enough to persuade Geraden, considering that Geraden would have welcomed a distraction from his thoughts of grief and guilt. I just think it's not likely Geraden would have consented, because it would have given him something else about which to feel guilty.