The Oath of Peace

[danlo]

In Gilden-fire SRD says that Kevin did have some foresight, but nowhere near Mhoram's. (VERY cool av Forester and welcome 2 the Watch, as well!)

[Fist and Faith]

Forestal,
I like the way you think (forgive the cliche) outside the box. I don't entirely agree, though. I think maybe the non-Kevin lore that Mhoram began was, eventually, powerful enough to get the 3rd Ward from wherever it was. Kevin had the 2nd guarded by some sort of barrier. Presumably, when the 1st was mastered, the location of the 2nd would be revealed, and they would have the knowledge to get through that barrier without the white gold. The 3rd was undoubtedly guarded by some barrier/guardian/whatever, and mastering the 2nd would reveal the location and means of getting to it. But the post-Mhoram Lords, even if they just stumbled onto the 3rd Ward, as Covenant and the quest stumbled onto the 2nd (thanks to Birinair having figured something out), managed to overcome the barrier by the power of their new lore. The new lore probably never approached the full power of the 6th Ward of Kevin's Lore, and certainly wasn't as powerful as the Power of Command, but it may have become as powerful as the 2nd Ward.

[Forestal]

(thanks danlo (pleasure to b here) + fist)

i'd really like to know the circumstances surrounding the discovery of the 3rd ward... and what the new lore was aswell...

but fist, presumtion is a great flaw ... as danlo said, kevin did have some foresight... and i really dont c ythe tales of the white gold would be in the 1st ward unless it was nessissary...

i mean, think like kevin:

Right, lets see, lets put the lowest of my power in here. oh yeah, lets put in stories about the most powerful magic existing in the land...

surely unless it had a practical purpose, it would only serve to make the future lords power-hungry, as power made the clave blood-hungry?


off subject:

i hope the 3rd chrons is about the old lords, i've been facinated by kevin sinse i read the 1st book at christmas, i'd love to see how his mind works.
and damelon, i'd like 2 know how and y he was named vile-silencer, and definatly not forgetting the creation of the krill...
and wouldn't u just love 2 read 1st hand about berek learning the earthlore and summoning the firelions for the 1st time?

-edit-

back on subject:

if it was about the old lords, perhaps we'd get the answer to this as the creating of the wards is a major turning point in the history of the land, so we must have some insight in2 how and y kevin put what he did in2 which wards.

[Fist and Faith]

i'd really like to know the circumstances surrounding the discovery of the 3rd ward... and what the new lore was aswell...

That would be REAL helpful, wouldn't it?

but fist, presumtion is a great flaw

Well LOOK who's talking! For example:

if the new lore they were developing could unlock the 3rd ward, doesn't that suggest that the new lore they were developing was already a part of kevin's lore that they did not know of yet?

The new lore was being developed with the Oath of Peace. Kevin's Lore was incompatible with the Oath. I can't see how Kevin could have planned such a thing.

Right, lets see, lets put the lowest of my power in here. oh yeah, lets put in stories about the most powerful magic existing in the land...

As I said somewhere or other, it's possible that he put the beginning knowledge of various aspects of power in the 1st Ward. And what it says about white gold could be <I>everything</I> they know about it. Which really isn't much. It doesn't say how to use it, but that type of thing seems to be common knowledge for these beings who are used to power. As Foamfollower said, "If the wild magic may not be called up by the simple decision of use, then I do not understand it at all." And without any training in power, Troy didn't have any trouble; using passion and desire for the power. Covenant, because of his problems, was the only one who was stumped.

And I can't believe for a second that he put knowledge there that told how to summon white gold, because if he knew how, he would have done it himself. Would he have Desecrated the Land if there was another option? He knew the limits of the Power of Command, and its possibilities didn't outweigh it's risks. White gold was another matter.

I think it was just there, basically saying, "There's an extraordinary thing called 'white gold.' I'll tell you about it, even though we have no idea where or how to find any. If you ever stumble onto any, though, <B>don't just throw it away!</B> We don't want Foul getting his hands on it. And here's why..."

off subject: i hope the 3rd chrons is about the old lords, i've been facinated by kevin sinse i read the 1st book at christmas, i'd love to see how his mind works.
and damelon, i'd like 2 know how and y he was named vile-silencer, and definatly not forgetting the creation of the krill...
and wouldn't u just love 2 read 1st hand about berek learning the earthlore and summoning the firelions for the 1st time?

Yeah, my vote is for the Old Lords too!! <B>You hear that, Stephen?</B>

if it was about the old lords, perhaps we'd get the answer to this as the creating of the wards is a major turning point in the history of the land, so we must have some insight in2 how and y kevin put what he did in2 which wards.

It would be helpful Unfortunately, I suspect we're going to be in the dark forever on a lot of this. However, it could be that Sunder and Hollian decide to relearn Kevin's Lore, starting with the 1st Ward. Covenant learned how vital the Staff of Law was to the Earthpower, and we know that Berek made the Staff with the help of the Earthpower, which also taught him at least the beginnings of what became Kevin's Lore. I <I>want</I> things motivated by peace and love to count for more, and so I want it to be possible for Mhoram's decision to lead to even greater glory than Kevin's Lore. But it's possible that it just doesn't work that way in the Land. The Lore and Staff may be the way they were because the Earthpower wanted things that way. And now that there's a new Staff, created to replace the old one, it might make sense to use the old lore.

[Forestal]

but fist, presumtion is a great flaw

Well LOOK who's talking! For example:

if the new lore they were developing could unlock the 3rd ward, doesn't that suggest that the new lore they were developing was already a part of kevin's lore that they did not know of yet?

The new lore was being developed with the Oath of Peace. Kevin's Lore was incompatible with the Oath. I can't see how Kevin could have planned such a thing.


but was it really incompatible? we know of the old lords that they suppresed violence when nessisary, in a way, isn't that the oath of peace?
perhaps the oath just took that to extremes that weren't nessisary... if the oath was altered slightly, i'm sure that a comprimise could be found in kevin's lore. after all, kevin's lore is still earthpower, and earthpower cant b intended to cause desecration... can it? (heh the 3rd book of the 3rd chrons, "The Suicidal Land" lol)

[[Syl]]

I think some stories on the old lords would be cool, but I believe someone said that SRD has stated that he will not do that. What I think would be even better would be for SRD to write Or I Will Sell My Soul for Guilt under the pseudonym of T. Covenant, even if only in novella form.

nit- Loric Vilesilencer created the Krill.

[Forestal]

oops.... i knew that, just a slip of the fingers/mind...

[Fist and Faith]

The new lore was being developed with the Oath of Peace. Kevin's Lore was incompatible with the Oath. I can't see how Kevin could have planned such a thing.

but was it really incompatible?

They were definitely incompatible:

To his horror, Mhoram had come to perceive that the Oath itself was the essential blindness, the incapacity which had prevented the new Lords from penetrating to the heart of Kevin's Lore. When the first new Lords, and all the Land with them, had taken the Oath, had articulated their highest ideal and deepest commitment by forswearing all violent, destructive passions, all human instincts for murder and ravage and contempt, when they had bound themselves with the Oath, they had unwittingly numbed themselves to the basic vitality of the Old Lords' power.

I don't think Mhoram was misinterpreting or incorrectly perceiving things. His knowledge seems certain; he has no doubt. Plus, if his knowledge was incorrect, he wouldn't have lost his prescience, and he wouldn't have had the power to pull the <I>krill</I> from the table or defeat Satansfist. They knew that they couldn't use Kevin's Lore with the Oath in their hearts.

we know of the old lords that they suppresed violence when nessisary, in a way, isn't that the oath of peace? perhaps the oath just took that to extremes that weren't nessisary... if the oath was altered slightly, i'm sure that a comprimise could be found in kevin's lore.

Although I know what you mean, "suppressed violence when necessary" is sure a funny way of saying it. I started this thread to try to answer the question of how the New and Old Lords are different. Most recently, I've been thinking that the Oath can't be altered because there is no degree of restraint between that of the New and Old Lords. They might not be exactly the same, but nothing could fit between them. (Am I making sense? It's hard to say what I mean.) We know Giants, and we know that they would not become Rockbrothers with people who are ruled by anger, or malice. The fact that they built Revelstone must say something about the Old Lords. And Kevin could have easily defeated, even destroyed, the <I>Haruchai</I> army. Instead, he offered them every friendship possible. What "violent, destructive passions, all human instincts for murder and ravage and contempt" did the Old Lords display? Even the Ritual of Desecration wasn't any of those things, and it might not even have been the despair that it is usually thought to be. On the other hand, even if it happened <I>only</I> when there were <I>absolutely no</I> other options, the New Lords killed, and Mhoram was even willing to go full-out.

So how different can the New be from the Old? I think any lightening-up of their dedication to the Oath would have broken it entirely. There just wasn't room to maneuver. I think the Oath is just a constant reminder that they give themselves to not lose control of themselves. Kevin's Lore can't be used very effectively with that mindset. And you can't throw away self-control and love of peace whenever it suits you, and yet truly have them at other times. "Yeah, I'm in control, and I love peace" would be empty words.

after all, kevin's lore is still earthpower, and earthpower cant b intended to cause desecration... can it?

The Ritual of Desecration would seem to be evidence to the contrary. Kevin and Trell both intended desecration. And yet that's the only example I can think of. Even Foul didn't use Earthpower for evil that I can recall, other than when he helped Kevin with the Ritual. He drove people crazy, had minions, and used things like the Illearth Stone (which I presume was not Earthpower). He didn't seem capable of using the Staff of Law. Maybe the Law that the Staff represented, and eventually came to be ("The tool and its purpose were one."), didn't allow the Earthpower to be used for evil. In which case we need to figure out how Kevin and Trell managed it.

[KaosArcana]

Forestal wrote:
after all, kevin's lore is still earthpower, and earthpower cant b intended to cause desecration... can it?
The Ritual of Desecration would seem to be evidence to the contrary. Kevin and Trell both intended desecration. And yet that's the only example I can think of. Even Foul didn't use Earthpower for evil that I can recall, other than when he helped Kevin with the Ritual. He drove people crazy, had minions, and used things like the Illearth Stone (which I presume was not Earthpower). He didn't seem capable of using the Staff of Law. Maybe the Law that the Staff represented, and eventually came to be ("The tool and its purpose were one."), didn't allow the Earthpower to be used for evil. In which case we need to figure out how Kevin and Trell managed it.

danlo, I think the capacity for destruction has to be inherent in the
Earthpower because you can't have creation without destruction.

Remember the story of the Worm at the World's End?

In the First Chronicles, we're just told that the Creator made the
Earth, but we're not really given a lot of details ... (I kind of
envision him as being a Chef at a big pot-- with Foul right beside
him throwing in Banes!) *G*

In the Second Chronicles, Pitchwife tellls Linden that the Earth was
made when the Worm devoured so much star-life that it fell into a
deep slumber with the power of the stars causing the Earth to grow
around him.

So you can look at that as saying that the Earth-- and Earthpower--
arose from the destruction of the stars.

And the Sunbane arose from the Corrupted Earthpower which required
death to create life ... water, food, etc.

The more I think about it, the more I think that explains why the Oath
of Peace reduced the New Lords' power.

Kevin and the Old Lords didn't try to reign in their emotions the way the
New Lords did. They didn't try to banish the darkness of their hearts in
the same way.

But it may be that the only way to use Earthpower correctly is to
acknowledge the power of violent emotions because violence and
destruction are just as inherent in Earthpower as creation is.

The Fire Lions didn't just force the King's men to flee, did they?
It DESTROYED them. The Colossus vaporized the Ramen instead
of giving them the power to kick out the Ravers.

Earthpower may be good, but that doesn't mean its always "nice."

[Fist and Faith]

KaosArcana,

IMHO, That's <I>real</I> good thinking!! Adding to what you said about the Colossus and FireLions, Caerroil Wildwood was a bloodthirsty, vengeful guy. The New Lords certainly didn't consider the nature of the Earthpower's most powerful manifestations when they made their Oath. Maybe the Earthpower set up its own Law - telling Berek how to get the Staff, and giving him whatever guidelines it gave him - the way it did because it is a "whole" force, one whose nature does not fit into either end of the spectrum. Maybe if Berek had taken the Oath, the Earthpower never would have spoken to him. Or if it did, the Lore might not have developed nearly as far as it did by Kevin's time. The New Lords tried to make themselves paragons of virtue, and Foul was the other end. Since the Earthpower's nature lies in both, neither could use it.

Well done!

[danlo]

Very good points Kaos! Especially, the complexities of earthpower itself reducing the effectiveness of the OofP!!!

[KaosArcana]

Spoke Fist and Faith:

Maybe the Earthpower set up its own Law - telling Berek how to get the Staff, and giving him whatever guidelines it gave him - the way it did because it is a "whole" force, one whose nature does not fit into either end of the spectrum. Maybe if Berek had taken the Oath, the Earthpower never would have spoken to him.

Consider too the nature of the First Lord: Berek was a warrior, the
mightiest one in the Land. Not even a Raver-possessed King could
overcome him in hand-to-hand combat, though it did cause him to
lose courage. (Heh. Maybe Berek had some Haruchai blood in him.)


If gentleness were required to master the Earthpower, then why wouldn't
the Earth have spoken to the Queen?

[Fist and Faith]

If gentleness were required to master the Earthpower, then why wouldn't the Earth have spoken to the Queen?

I always figured these kinds of HUGE things only happen when the greatest powers - so far, that means the Earthpower and the Creator - see that, without question, beauty was going to pass utterly from the Land. Berek was <I>the last</I>. If he had died, there was no hope of anything else saving the Land.

And the Creator didn't send white gold to the Land when Kevin was fighting because the Ritual was going to buy more time. But there was nobody who could do anything at prevent Foul from taking over in the 1st Chronicles. They couldn't beat him, and they couldn't buy more time. They wouldn't have found the Power of Command if the white gold hadn't woken the <I>krill</I>, and Mhoram wouldn't have solved the mystery of Kevin's Lore without Elena's Bannor/Covenant sculpture.

And white gold was needed again in the 2nd. Even the <I>Elohim</I> said that they would have fallen.

[Damelon]

And the Creator didn't send white gold to the Land when Kevin was fighting because the Ritual was going to buy more time.

The Creator also knew that Kevin wasn't the man to defeat Foul. Kevin was unacquainted with despair until near the end, and he couldn't handle it.

[duchess of malfi]

But could the Creator have sent white gold to the Land without the summoning from inside the Land? If he acted on his own to send the White Gold, wouldn't that break the Arch of Time, and the white gold weilder be his tool? I always thought that the summons was necessary for the Creator to choose the wielder and for that person to go to the Land?

[Fist and Faith]

I've never been able to figure out exactly what role the Creator played in the summoning. The Lords hoped the Creator played a part in it, which gave them hope. And the Creator certainly did choose TC and LA. But what that means is beyond me. Foul also chose them. Since they're brothers, or possibly yin and yang of the same being (Osondrea's tale said it might be either way), maybe they automatically choose the same things in some situations. But I don't see how the Creator's having a preference helped get them to the Land.

[Forestal]

the creator played no part at all.

the creator could not touch the land in any way, but he did know who was going 2 b chosen by foul. so he spoke 2 them 1st, as foul tried to do, but could not, as the creator was outside, and could get to them 1st.

-notice that foul addresses TC both times that he is summoned, 1st by drool and the 2nd with the red triange.
-notice that the creator, or 'the man in a robe', addressed TC and LA before their 1st arrival in the land.
-also notice that the 2nd summoning, when the creator didn'tspeak with TC, his white gold created black fire, true that was venom, but still, foul couldn't do that b4, because TC was already a tool of the creator - where as the 2nd time, he took joans place, and was not, therefore a tool of the creator, but somewhere in between.

[Fist and Faith]

Reread the conversation between Covenant and the Creator in <I>Lepers End</I>. But here are the most relevant passages.

"You did not choose this task. You did not undertake it of your own free will. It was thrust upon you. Blame belongs to the chooser, and this choice was made by one who elected you without your knowledge or consent."

"You must have been sure of yourself."

"Sure? Ah, no. There was great hazard - risk for the world which I made - risk even for me. Had my enemy gained the white wild magic gold, he would have unloosed himself from the Earth - destroyed it so that he might hurl himself against me. No, Thomas Covenant. I risked my trust in you...."

"You have not asked for this gift, but I give it to you whether or not you wish it. I did not ask your approval when I elected you for the Land, and do not ask now."

[Ryzel]

I've never been able to figure out exactly what role the Creator played in the summoning. The Lords hoped the Creator played a part in it, which gave them hope. And the Creator certainly did choose TC and LA. But what that means is beyond me. Foul also chose them. Since they're brothers, or possibly yin and yang of the same being (Osondrea's tale said it might be either way), maybe they automatically choose the same things in some situations. But I don't see how the Creator's having a preference helped get them to the Land.

Here is a conundrum but I do not think that it necessarily is very difficult. Remember that the creator could not reach into creation, but that does not mean that he might not have had whatever influence he wanted to have on matters outside creation. As TC and LA was summoned from outside the creation it stands to reason that the summoning might have been influenced by the creator without it breaking the arch of time. In short: he could (and did) select TC to be summoned when Lord Foul first influenced Drool Rockworm to summon the White Gold.

Later I assume that Covenant simply became The White Gold, and any summoning thereafter would mean him. Although it might be because LF wanted TC to be the one he summoned that he needed him to make the choice he forces in TWL.

[Fist and Faith]

Fire, here's the thread I mentioned. Fun stuff!