Covenant as Superhero

[wayfriend]

I think that there's a lot that could be said about viewing Covenant's story as the story of a superhero.

He's got the superpowers, after all. (Do they only work in the Land? Isn't that like Superman's powers, where Earth is his Land?)

And he has an origin story, one which is similar to other superheroes. It's almost a trope to have superheroes begin as crippled, or disadvantaged persons, or victims of some disaster. Daredevil was blind, Iron Man was fatally wounded, and so on. In many ways, superheroes are wish fulfillment fantasies for escaping futile lives and undeserved afflictions, and leprosy is the quintessential expression of futility.

Modern superheroes are envisioned as struggling with their dark sides. That's Covenant all over.

And more recently, superheroes are ways that we explore the uses of power. From "with great power comes great responsibility" to Civil War to Batman vs. Superman (and, yes, the comics were there way before the movies) the superhero genre explores the dimensions of power and the need for moral authority - or not. Again, this is THE central subject in Covenant's story.

Like any long-running superhero story, the Chronicles have a large cast of other heroes who show up and help out. We have Linden Avery, who is his Super Girl. And we have diabolic enemies who want nothing less than world destruction, and have hordes of minions at their disposal. We have puppet-master plotting, and an Arch super-villian, who never fails to re-appear after you think he is finally defeated.

Wikipedia lists some common traits of superheroes.
- Extraordinary powers or abilities - check.
- A strong moral code - check.
- A motivation, such as a sense of responsibility or guilt - check, check, and check.
- A secret identity - in a way, yes, in that people from our world had no idea.
- A distinctive costume - in the Land, jeans and a t-shirt are distinctive. :)
- An underlying theme or motif - check.
- A supporting cast of recurring characters, including friends - check.
- A rogues gallery consisting of enemies that are fought repeatedly - check.
- Independent wealth - sure, he's the ur-Lord with the gold ring.
- A backstory that explains his abilities - check.

How else is Covenant like a Superhero? How is he not? I think it's an interesting angle on the story. And, if we're going to talk Chronicles movie, maybe the superhero angle that is the "in" that can make it happen.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Interesting thesis. I'll have to chew on it.



------------------------------------

And, if we're going to talk Chronicles movie, maybe the superhero angle that is the "in" that can make it happen.

There's still talk about this? I'd assumed that it was a dead-duck. Though, I'd be pleasantly surprised to have been wrong.

[wayfriend]

There is talk, yes.

In my spare time (ha!), I've also been working on a "treatment" for a COVENANT film, or series of films, or tv series, or whatever. I hasten to add that I'm doing this entirely "on spec": nobody in the movie business has expressed any interest at all (yet), except my agent's Hollywood sub-agent. He believes there will be interest--but only if I write the "treatment," and only if I write it (for lack of a better term) correctly. So I've been trying to learn how to do what he wants. He's rejected the first two iterations. Eventually (soon?) I'll start working on the third.

[dANdeLION]

They should do it like Game of Thrones is doing it.

[SleeplessOne]

I think that there's a lot that could be said about viewing Covenant's story as the story of a superhero.

He's got the superpowers, after all. (Do they only work in the Land? Isn't that like Superman's powers, where Earth is his Land?)

And he has an origin story, one which is similar to other superheroes. It's almost a trope to have superheroes begin as crippled, or disadvantaged persons, or victims of some disaster. Daredevil was blind, Iron Man was fatally wounded, and so on. In many ways, superheroes are wish fulfillment fantasies for escaping futile lives and undeserved afflictions, and leprosy is the quintessential expression of futility.

Modern superheroes are envisioned as struggling with their dark sides. That's Covenant all over.

And more recently, superheroes are ways that we explore the uses of power. From "with great power comes great responsibility" to Civil War to Batman vs. Superman (and, yes, the comics were there way before the movies) the superhero genre explores the dimensions of power and the need for moral authority - or not. Again, this is THE central subject in Covenant's story.

Like any long-running superhero story, the Chronicles have a large cast of other heroes who show up and help out. We have Linden Avery, who is his Super Girl. And we have diabolic enemies who want nothing less than world destruction, and have hordes of minions at their disposal. We have puppet-master plotting, and an Arch super-villian, who never fails to re-appear after you think he is finally defeated.

Wikipedia lists some common traits of superheroes.
- Extraordinary powers or abilities - check.
- A strong moral code - check.
- A motivation, such as a sense of responsibility or guilt - check, check, and check.
- A secret identity - in a way, yes, in that people from our world had no idea.
- A distinctive costume - in the Land, jeans and a t-shirt are distinctive. :)
- An underlying theme or motif - check.
- A supporting cast of recurring characters, including friends - check.
- A rogues gallery consisting of enemies that are fought repeatedly - check.
- Independent wealth - sure, he's the ur-Lord with the gold ring.
- A backstory that explains his abilities - check.

How else is Covenant like a Superhero? How is he not? I think it's an interesting angle on the story. And, if we're going to talk Chronicles movie, maybe the superhero angle that is the "in" that can make it happen.

TC definitely displays some superhero qualities as you have listed in the OP.

Perhaps one way in which Covenant is not like a superhero is that despite his superpowers, he repeatedly seeks a better answer, or alternative, to using sheer force to resolve his conflicts.

Also, while there have probably been 'reluctant heroes' in the Marvel/DC etc universes, I'd reckon few would be as completely passive as Covenant, nor would many actively seek to extricate themselves from their challenges as often as he does (I'm obviously mainly talking 1st chronicles TC here; 2nd chronicles TC is far more likely to embrace heroism) ..

[Skyweir]

I think that there's a lot that could be said about viewing Covenant's story as the story of a superhero.

He's got the superpowers, after all. (Do they only work in the Land? Isn't that like Superman's powers, where Earth is his Land?)

And he has an origin story, one which is similar to other superheroes. It's almost a trope to have superheroes begin as crippled, or disadvantaged persons, or victims of some disaster. Daredevil was blind, Iron Man was fatally wounded, and so on. In many ways, superheroes are wish fulfillment fantasies for escaping futile lives and undeserved afflictions, and leprosy is the quintessential expression of futility.

Modern superheroes are envisioned as struggling with their dark sides. That's Covenant all over.

And more recently, superheroes are ways that we explore the uses of power. From "with great power comes great responsibility" to Civil War to Batman vs. Superman (and, yes, the comics were there way before the movies) the superhero genre explores the dimensions of power and the need for moral authority - or not. Again, this is THE central subject in Covenant's story.

Like any long-running superhero story, the Chronicles have a large cast of other heroes who show up and help out. We have Linden Avery, who is his Super Girl. And we have diabolic enemies who want nothing less than world destruction, and have hordes of minions at their disposal. We have puppet-master plotting, and an Arch super-villian, who never fails to re-appear after you think he is finally defeated.

Wikipedia lists some common traits of superheroes.
- Extraordinary powers or abilities - check.
- A strong moral code - check.
- A motivation, such as a sense of responsibility or guilt - check, check, and check.
- A secret identity - in a way, yes, in that people from our world had no idea.
- A distinctive costume - in the Land, jeans and a t-shirt are distinctive. :)
- An underlying theme or motif - check.
- A supporting cast of recurring characters, including friends - check.
- A rogues gallery consisting of enemies that are fought repeatedly - check.
- Independent wealth - sure, he's the ur-Lord with the gold ring.
- A backstory that explains his abilities - check.

How else is Covenant like a Superhero? How is he not? I think it's an interesting angle on the story. And, if we're going to talk Chronicles movie, maybe the superhero angle that is the "in" that can make it happen.

Really

Super antihero super hero

Strong moral code Really .. a STRONG moral code often aligns with what a person thinks .. he wasnt all that moral .. he even criticises his own lack. Hes also pretty self absorbed.. yeah sure for reason .. but I guess thats the brooding aspect that often accompanies heroes.

Whats his underlying theme

A bit difficult to fly a rapist superhero imo .. and his relentless self doubt and guilt .. though may be endearing qualities of a superhero but his reluctance to use his ... powers ... would make him an aggravating superhero ..

I dont think Covenant would see himself as a super hero .. or a super anything.

LOL

Thems fighting words

[wayfriend]

Strong moral code Really ..

Absolutely. In the first Chronicles, Covenant did some bad things, but it was because of a strong moral code. In other words: Principles. The first one being: the Land cannot be real, do not succumb to it's delusion. The second one being: be cautious of power.

Whats his underlying theme

That man is an effective passion. The overarching theme of the entire Chronicles is that everyone can make choices that matter, and that passion fuels your ability to execute them.

[Skyweir]

.. Covenant did some bad things, but it was because of a strong moral code

With that is antithetical.. he didnt do bad things .. like mentally lust after the school girls in short skirts, he didnt physically rape Lena .. BECAUSE of a strong moral code. Thats not how being moral or principled works.

You do reprehensible things either mentally or physically BECAUSE you lack a moral compass. Yes he thought he was dreaming and as he deemed it an non reality ... he could get away with it .. so he jumped in with both feet.

I even give you .. that his thoughts are no indictment of lacking morality. But you are what you think... not legally but morally.

But perhaps it his journey to redemption.. that makes it more viable to spin as hero ____

His inaction made him commit to less in the Land.

.. that man is an effective passion

What does that even mean ____ .. an effective passion. He had passion ____ He was passionate ____ I dont see the early Covenant as a particularly passionate human ... and Im sure your not referring to the passion he exhibited in lusting after two minors in his world and a third minor in the Land.

His relative inertia and refusal to engage with the Land would suggest the opposite. And I get why that Covenant was reluctant to engage with the Land .. as it would mean he would have to face what he had done .. his use of violence in raping a 16yo girl ..

I agree that Donaldson weaves in the concept that everyone can make choices that matter. Covenant fought against that concept for long enough.

.. that passion fuels your ability to execute them

Im not certain that this is right with respect to Covenant. The Oath of Peace had the inhabitants of the land suppress passion to discipline and duty. And that wasnt a viable way forward given Fouls machinations.. and yes it was passion that ignited the power of the ring .. but that was passion without control. There had to be a balance .. he finally achieved that balance.

But Covenant was only a hero when he sacrificed himself for the Land ... thats not an orthodox definition of a Super Hero.

[wayfriend]

he deemed it an non reality ... he could get away with it .. so he jumped in with both feet.

Do you think THAT's how it happened? Well, then, if that's the case, you're certainly not going to see morality. But I don't think that's how it happened, so my conclusions will differ from yours.

His inaction made him commit to less in the Land.

Initially. Covenant is an ordinary man who discovered heroism, because he discovered why heroism mattered. His inaction was in the before-hero time.

.. that man is an effective passion

What does that even mean ____

That's a brief question requiring a very long answer. But basically, our power arises from our passion, and also that our power can matter. Covenant and Mhoram both undertook symmetrical journeys to discover this.

But Covenant was only a hero when he sacrificed himself for the Land ...

Oh. Okay. That's not my point of view, however, so my conclusions will differ from yours.

[Skyweir]

You said ......... more or less ........ His inaction was pre hero

Ok .. I can roll with that rationale ... as that also covers off the rape of Lena ... all are entitled their own journey .. and hes always been an antihero ..

So .. mmm .. could be a goer

[wayfriend]

Well, I should provide something which I have used to substantiate my case:

And I was suddenly thinking, Wait a minute! If I want to write a story about a guy whose going to reject fanatasy, then I should write about somebody for whom fantasy would be infinitely preferable to reality. If you have a really nice life, as of course I suppose we all do, and you had this extended, horrific dream, full of archetypal evil, and you wake up and say, oh thank Jesus, that was just a dream, good thing that wasn't real - now you're just being sane, that's just self interest, we all do that. But if your life is a walking nightmare, and you have a fantasy that is glory incarnate, and you still say, wait a minute, I know the difference between reality and fantasy, and that difference is important, it matters, and I'm going to cling to it - even though that one's way better - now we're talking about a moral principle of some kind. We're talking about religion. We're talking about an article of faith. We're talking about a belief structure which transcends the self interest of the individual. Now we're talking about something [?] fascinating. [link]

So this is why I consider Covenant to have a "strong moral code". He rejects the unreal even though it's "way better". Just as he rejects killing, even in regard to Foul's minions. Just as he rejects power, because of it's ability to corrupt, and because of it's lack of cost.

[Skyweir]

Nice

Covenant is that very character ..