Religious Language quickly re-appropriated by the ungodly

[Linna Heartbooger]

...Doesn't really make sense to me...guy just wantonly slaughtered 100+ men because their king sent them to ask him to come to him.

Fifty men and their captain. That's a lot of swords. Or spears. Or crowbars. Or sharpened sticks. (ok, probably not crowbars.)
Military units.
If he was "asking," he wasn't asking very nicely...

[Skyweir]

Sam...
Thats a pretty sound takeaway imho. Chinese Whispers is the game. And youre right. Most of the .. records .. we have today are remnants of ..... thousands of oral histories, .... passed from patriarch to patriarch, and the possibly matriarch to matriarch also, from generation to generation over many 100s of years, before some of these stories were put into writing.

Students were selected and trained as scribes, and only they had the responsibility of recording. Those responsible for maintaining them kept the 100s of individual scrolls from which eventually ... 100s of years later again, at the Council of Nicaea it began .... and from that time in 325AD, some of these records were selected and amended. And from those remnant scrolls, the Bible texts we are more familiar with today, were initiated.

So Chinese Whispers is a fair analogy I think. And you are right, like many good books there are good things, principles, morals that can better an individual life. These things can be taken away, their distinctiveness can be made our own

And as inheritors of western democracies, many of our legal systems and systems of government are heavily influenced by the Bible. We cant downplay the great influence the Bible, but particularly the New Testament .. i.e. Christianity .. has had on our human and social evolution.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Way back in the OP, I said this:

...I think that Jesus got in a bit humorous burn on people like me when He said that, "the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light."

And Mighara had then said this:

OTOH I do have specific glosses of e.g. Jacob/Esau and the children-of-light precept, that do not go directly with a greater comportment of those two sections along your lines, so I have to rethink my glosses, how they might fit with your meta-analysis (if you will).

And so I just wanted to say that I now think I was wrong about what the "children of light" bit was saying.

I had ripped it out of context a bit.
Here is the same quote with the sentence that comes after it:
For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light. And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.

I think the parable he told there really WAS emphasizing a "don't love money; use money" kind of shrewdness.
...NOT about "the sons of light" failing to be shrewd and getting deceived by others.


Though "the Bible calling out Christians as being sort of especially and embarrassingly gullible & easily taken-in in certain areas" does happen...

[samrw3]

For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light. And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.

I think the parable he told there really WAS emphasizing a "don't love money; use money" kind of shrewdness.
.

Also, I think the intent is to use money for productive or for Godly natures - serve the poor, take care sick, etc There is a temptation to store up wealth for some time in undefined future. I think this scripture indicates that instead of accumulating wealth use it for things that have meaning.

[Skyweir]

Otherwise it would be a senseless acquisition from the Jesus perspective no?

And he dealt with the whole squirrelling away money .. in the kid who buried his .. talent and failed to use it. Talent being coin, but also has a broader application, no?

I like this Jesus dude .. I dont like what humans have done with this legacy .. whether fictional or soundly based .. its a resounding mythology and one of great value.

[Linna Heartbooger]

serve the poor, take care sick, etc There is a temptation to store up wealth for some time in undefined future. I think this scripture indicates that instead of accumulating wealth use it for things that have meaning.

Aww yeah.

And then after he finishes that parable and the explanation, this happens:
The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.

I like this Jesus dude .. I don't like what humans have done with this legacy .. whether fictional or soundly based .. its a resounding mythology and one of great value.

Right?
I love it when he's meeting the woman at the well, and he is incredibly gentle, though direct.
I love it when he's being wily & subversive, giving unexpected responses to people who ask for stuff, but aren't ready for the truth.
I love it (but am intimidated) when he's going head-to-head with religious leaders, and he KEEPS pressing the point, even though they want to KILL him.

And yet the temptation to use that to grab power, yeah, that happens..
(like you were saying - "what humans have done with this legacy")
So often people's response to good news is, "Hey, this draws people; let's get on the bandwagon and use it as a fast-track to power."

I love this Jesus-reaction:
Jesus is rebuking Pharisees, pronouncing "woes" to them, for their huge commitment to outward appearances of religious zeal and success at making "important" connections...
...how they're super-careful about rule-following even down to tithe of the herbs they get, but careless about bigger things like, umm, oh...
...justice and the love of God.
One of the lawyers answered him, "Teacher, in saying these things you insult us also."
And then he proceeds to go down the list of some of their crimes against God and man, starting with:
"Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers."
(I have only noticed that episode in recent years... kind of like he's telling them, "Insulting you guys? Why, yes, I would! Sure!")

So... I think that makes the use-this-legacy-for-a-power-grab tendency very ironic...

[Skyweir]

Indeed .. well said Linna

You know I get the modern versions of the Bible are very common .. and I know its moot as the multiple translation thing .. but I have a soft spot for the King James translation. I understand perfectly what you have cited .. but I prefer it in old english LOL I know its weird for an agnostic bordering atheist to have a Biblical preference, right? I like that extra level of depth that comes with that version. Though I can clearly see the value of modern English translations.

But LOL .. back to the point.

Honestly I would absolutely love it if I believed there was a Jesus persona. Maybe there was .. who am I to say one way or another. Cos this dude was deep, sharp and didnt mince words. I like that a lot. I love all the airy fairy stuff on the sermon on the mount too ... cos awesome messaging.

I love the principles of unconditional love, kindness in dealing with one another, having each others backs, you know looking out for everyone .. even strangers and enemies. Such great messaging ..

I remember taking my kids to a Royal Show ... our agricultural shows .. theyre on once a year and super fun and attract all sorts of attendees. I was much younger and a general duties patrol officer at the time .. but was my day off .. and I had the kids who were all under 7yo and had one of those groovy double pushers .. but they didnt have the ease of maneuverability they do now. So was walking along and a gang of kids, looking like thugs were approaching me and they had been swearing at passerbys and being generally aggressive.

As they approached me I greeted them with a smile, said hello and was generally just polite ... and as I did those things I saw them quite differently. I saw them as kids, not just any kids, but beautiful kids. When I engaged with them I felt an affection for them, even a love for them. All this simply flowed as a natural extension of a smile and saying
hi. They ALL responded kinda sheepishly but gratefully and came to say hi to the kids and we talked briefly before all moving on.

That was a legacy of the Jesus persona that I carried with me. I was actually religious at that time .. but I saw that being nice and welcoming to others quite often was rewarded in kind. And occasionally not at all lol

But I was cool with that .. to get more positive hits than negative ones is a win in my eyes.

In my work I used this approach in dealing with some of the most aggressive humans Ive ever had the misfortune of engaging with. And it never failed me. I had perps that would not surrender information to anyone else .. willingly sit with me and tell me everything that happened. This rarely involved the sharing of fairy tales of sugar plum outcomes.

Perhaps it was an abuse of those very genuine yet powerful principles that I embraced in good faith? Maybe but in some circumstances it was a valuable process in my line of work... in others .. it had no application at all.. but mostly because of the nature of the individuals involved.

But it meant that I could scale my responses .. from moderate if they were cooperative, to more coercive if they were not. Well we deal with all kinds dont we .. not everyone responds the same way .. so when it works in your favour you just go with it

So the point is that there is soooo much value in the Jesus principles and teachings .. and there is power in their application.

[Lazy Luke]

So the point is that there is soooo much value in the Jesus principles and teachings .. and there is power in their application.

My favourite verse in Mark's Gospel is in the first chapter, concerning John the Baptism:

1:5

The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Taking the meaning literally, as so often Christians love to do, you might imagine a deserted countryside and town - maybe a few cats and dogs, an unattended donkey and cart, a camel or two, and a few tumbleweeds.
Although more realistically, it would be the ungodly who awakened that day to find their breakfast unmade, their servants gone, and an eerie silence in the streets outside. Everyone, everyone, everyone, was down by the river.
Definitely my favourite verse.

The last time I attended Bible Study I asked the group to consider an idea that Jesus and John the Baptist were really the same man. Christians! I might have had better luck suggesting we all strip naked and dance in circle beneath the moon. Or for that matter, what joyous repercussions if Thomas Covenant never actually raped Lena ... wwwwwwell.

Flippancy aside, the chronology in Mark's scripture places the verse:

10:25

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven.

... after John is beheaded.
And the only one I can think of who wore a camel coat was the man himself. And if this means John somehow escaped the executioner and was still walking around, alive and ... well!

Chapter 1, verse 5, definitely my favourite.

[Skyweir]

There are some really great scriptural references .. but there are also some utterly confounding and nonsensical ones too .. but that is a perspective of an agtheist

[Lazy Luke]

What the hootenanny is an agthiest?

[Ur Dead]

Wow.. everybody takes the bible exactly how they interpret it in their day and age..

You know.. some of those stories may be referencing the age they were written in. Which in some cases have a totally different meaning.

Like the boys and the prophet.
They were "out in the wilderness"
Dangerous creature were were more common to roam freely than if they
roam in a society today. (Police or animal control tend to "run off a moose" treading near a Canada town.
Why were the boys out there in such numbers?
Maybe they were given a task by parents or community with numbers as to provide protection/alarm.
They see the bald old geezer and decide to "have fun" with the old guy.
The prophet yells and scolds them for harassing him and not doing what they are told.
The boys are more intense at harassing than looking out for danger.
Bears come out.. maybe cubs in the area.
Bears (like spring break) go wild on the boys.
Story retold until written down.
Story doesn't say if the bears ate the boys
Moral: Don't let some frivlous thing take away from what you are suppose to do.

Another is "turning the other cheek" It has a different perspective when told in this way.
Slavery was common back then.
To many slave owners their people were cherished and many were released after a period of time. (Sorta contract work for X numbers of years)
But there were many akin to today's view. They looked down upon their slaved as sub-human.
In many ways the Romans use this method on how they treated the Jews back then.
When a slave did something wrong in the eyes of the master the owner
would backhand the slave. This was considered the lowest form of contempt
of a person. Roman soldiers would do it to the population which was to remind them of their place.
When a jew slapped "an equal" or a paid servant they would use the palm of the hand.
Each method used a different cheek.
What Jesus said was to turn the other cheek, is if you have grievance against me. If you strike me, then do so, but do it as one equal to another. Do not elevate yourself above me. You are no better than I. Even if I am a slave.

Today the passage is consider for the person to be more submissive to pain
and abuse thus lowering them self. To dismiss retaliation.

Just something to consider.

[Skyweir]

mmm... that is very interesting Ur dead .. I didnt know that meaning for the ... turn the other cheek .. thing. How interesting .. because it is often used synonymous with accepting abuse from an abuser.

There are many good lessons in the Bible .. and they though do hold their own meaning .. after many translations .. some of that meaning is lost ,, and also refined.

Even when I considered myself a Christian I never took the Bible literally .. despite enjoying the morals of many of the stories within its pages.

[Lazy Luke]

Wow.. everybody takes the bible exactly how they interpret it in their day and age..

You know.. some of those stories may be referencing the age they were written in. Which in some cases have a totally different meaning.

Certainly, if consideration is given to the way stories where told, and written down. Stories might be interpreted very differently in scroll form than in modernized codex form.

I might not believe a man can walk on water. I'm therefore told that a God can. However, a man just might be able to walk on water if put in the context of Moses and the Exodus of the slaves out of Egypt. Jesus knew those stories from his early childhood.
The oppressed peoples of Galilee did not need to leave their homeland, only, as you say, "turn the other cheek". A wholly different kind of exodus.

[Skyweir]

ahhhh .. and thats where I fall off the plate .. cos there were no Israeli slaves in Egypt, no Exodus .. so theres that

The book has great principles, some times you have to pick through the detris to find them .. but theres some great ones. Quite a number of christian teachings today mire some of their original application and interpretation .. but for the most part theres some great stuff there.

No doubt like the teachings of Buddha and other religious spiritual teachings.

If you are interested in the Moses exodus narrative I have provided links below .. but if you are not interested in evidentiary nature of the Bible .. perhaps dont read them each to our own .. and live and let live I say

To me no harm no foul .. until there is harm .. then there is every obligation to cry foul .. but where all is love and kindness .. what more do you really want to know

[Skyweir]

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/were-jew ... -1.5208519

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/staks-ro ... 08123.html