King Joyse

"Reflect" on Stephen Donaldson's other epic fantasy

Moderator: Cord Hurn

User avatar
wayfriend
.
Posts: 20957
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:34 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by wayfriend »

That's the best theory so far, so I guess I will believe it.

But ... SRD gives the king a name that makes him sound like a woman? How does that enable a profound redefinition of gender roles? By showing that a king can have a girly name as long as he's still really a man? Even when he's a doddering geezer?

Part of my problem is I always found the name King Joyse reminds me of James Joyce. So I never really ever thought he had a feminine name until someone pointed it out.

Still ... I got nuthin'. I contemplated that Joyse sounds like Joys, which may refer to his daughters being his joys. But that leads nowhere either.
User avatar
samrw3
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 1842
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:05 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post by samrw3 »

My guess wayfriend is SRD was trying to be clever or possibly inside joke type of thing. Look over here I'm naming this character King Joyse as a "hint"/inside joke/clever reveal/ that this story is going to be gender redefinition because this character has a name that seems girly.
User avatar
Cord Hurn
Servant of the Band
Posts: 7630
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:08 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Cord Hurn »

Certainly King Joyse does an excellent job playing the doddering old fool, so much so that at his second granting of audience to Prince Kragen, when Terisa knows his frailness is an act, she still feels he's finished because his acting is so good.
In Chapter 39 of [i]A Man Rides Through[/i] was wrote:There on his throne, with Mordant in shambles, and Eremis poised to strike the last, crushing blow, he was too close to his grave--the burial ground as much of his spirit as of his decaying frame. She understood why Geraden loved him. Oh, she understood. Everything in her chest ached because he wasn't equal to the love people gave him anymore.

Somebody else would have to save Orison and Mordant.
It's such a contrast between how Terisa perceives King Joyse at that moment, and when next she sees him at the valley of Esmerel on the eve of battle.
In Chapter 47 of AMRT was wrote:The tentflaps were swept aside, and King Joyse strode in.

He startled Terisa so badly that she nearly stumbled to her knees.

He was filthy. Clots of mud clung to his battle gear--his breastplate and mail leggings, the protective iron pallettes on his shoulders, the brassards strapped to his arms. His mail had been cut, hacked at by swords. Blows dented his breastplate. Blood stained his thick cloak and the leather us armor; black streaks marked the tooled scabbard which held his longsword. Grime filled his beard, caked his hair to his scalp.

Nevertheless he entered the tent like a much younger man. He strode forward with strength in his legs, authority in his arms; and his eyes flashed a blue so deep that it was almost purple.

When he saw Terisa and Geraden, he grinned like a boy.

"Well met. Better to come late than not to come at all, I always say."
There's a duality about Joyse, not just between his feigned and real personas, but within his real persona is a risk-taker that can't stand taking too much risk when the pieces of this game are people that he cares about. The name, "Joyse", has a duality about it because of its history as first being a masculine name and later a feminine name. What I take about Stephen R. Donaldson's Gradual Interview remarks is that the King enables Terisa, Elega, Torrent, and Myste through his planned actions, and he is given a name that symbolizes that enablement. His name "Joyse" all by itself doesn't cause that enablement, of course.
User avatar
Cord Hurn
Servant of the Band
Posts: 7630
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:08 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Cord Hurn »

samrw3 wrote:My guess wayfriend is SRD was trying to be clever or possibly inside joke type of thing. Look over here I'm naming this character King Joyse as a "hint"/inside joke/clever reveal/ that this story is going to be gender redefinition because this character has a name that seems girly.
Stated far more succinctly than I ever could!
User avatar
Cord Hurn
Servant of the Band
Posts: 7630
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:08 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Cord Hurn »

It occurs to me that King Joyse's greatest strength may be his acting ability. This passage encourages me in that line of thinking.
In Chapter 49 of [i]A Man Rides Through[/i] was wrote:Her father was amazing, really, Elega thought. Trapped in this valley, hugely outnumbered, with Darsint's resources effectively exhausted, and the Congery's as well, he somehow made everyone who heard him feel that he couldn't be beaten.
User avatar
shadowbinding shoe
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 1477
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:33 am

Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Cord Hurn wrote:It occurs to me that King Joyse's greatest strength may be his acting ability. This passage encourages me in that line of thinking.
In Chapter 49 of [i]A Man Rides Through[/i] was wrote:Her father was amazing, really, Elega thought. Trapped in this valley, hugely outnumbered, with Darsint's resources effectively exhausted, and the Congery's as well, he somehow made everyone who heard him feel that he couldn't be beaten.
Eremis is a good actor too. Remember his little act at the water reservoir? Both are also charismatic. But Joyce believes in people's hidden potential for strength and goodness while Eremis is the opposite. If Joyce was just a good actor he'd be the Wizard of Oz. An empty shell of grandeur and power that hardly helps the heroes and his nation. But Joyce inspires his people to fulfill themselves. When the act is empty at its core, it only begets more emptiness and fails to achieve true things. Joyce saw something worthy in the people of Mordant and those people rose from their miserable existence to create a nation.
A little knowledge is still better than no knowledge.
User avatar
Cord Hurn
Servant of the Band
Posts: 7630
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:08 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Cord Hurn »

True, shadowbindingshoe, but please notice that I said acting ability may be Joyse's greatest strength, not that it was his only strength.

I suspect you like reading MN quotes as much as I enjoy posting them, Shoe, so the following might be entertaining for us both, as well as relevant to this discussion. And, I agree with you that Eremis is both a good actor and is charismatic. But I don't think he's as good at it as King Joyse.
In Chapter 44 of AMRT was wrote:Geraden had to struggle for a couple of minutes, but eventually he reached the conclusion she [Terisa] hadn't been able to articulate. "King Joyse," he said slowly, "persuaded you he was right by abandoning us. You think he went after Torrent--after Queen Madin. When somebody he loves is in danger--he forgets all about Mordant--all about his plans for saving his kingdom. He leaves that to us. Not because he doesn't think Mordant is important, but because he can't help caring about her."

Terisa's spirit lifted. "He isn't an idealist, not really. If anyone here is an idealist, it's Havelock. King Joyse didn't create Mordant and the Congery out of an abstract set of beliefs. He did it because people he knew and cared about were being hurt in the wars--hurt by Imagery. He wanted to save the world, a world made up of individual farmers and merchants and children who couldn't defend themselves.

"Don't forget that he risked a lot to protect us. Treating us the way he did, he confused us--even hurt us. But that gave Eremis a reason not to kill us. And we were left free to make our own choices. Just to keep us alive, King Joyse took the risk that we might go against him completely. Just to protect our lives and our choices.

"And," she concluded, "he trusts us to do the same thing for him. He trusts us to defend Mordant for him while he's out trying to rescue his wife."

As if a knot of tension had been released in him, Geraden collapsed back on the bed. Happily, he said, "I knew there was some good reason why I love that old man."

"Besides," she went on, now that she was sure of herself; "we aren't the ones who want to tilt the board. That's what Eremis is doing. What we're doing may not be right, but we aren't making that mistake."

"No," he assented. Eagerness brightened his eyes and animated his features, making him inexpressibly precious to her. "We aren't making that mistake."

For the time being, she was content.
And I think this next quote is further evidence that Joyse's acting ability is the most important strength he has for success, though again I want to emphasize that it isn't his only strength:
In Chapter 50 of AMRT was wrote: [Havelock, to Terisa and Geraden] "Don't you realize yet that I'm the one who planned all this? I planned it all. Only Joyse could have done it [acted out the role Havelock plotted for him], but I'm the one who planned it. No matter how crazy I get, I'm the best fornicating hop-board player, bar none.

"Remember that, for a change."
User avatar
Cord Hurn
Servant of the Band
Posts: 7630
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:08 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Cord Hurn »

But I might be wrong. King Joyse's acting ability certainly failed him when he confronted Terisa about where Myste had gone. Perhaps his greatest ability is his faith in what he is doing, what he is trying to accomplish. Even if this is so, his faith can fray at times, too, such that he can have trouble trusting Havelock, at least where his family is concerned.
In Chapter 49 of [i]A Man Rides Through[/i] was wrote:As she [Myste] spoke, King Joyse's expression cleared. "That is well," he said when she was done. "If we are defeated, my lord Termigan will be able to do whatever he wishes with his hate. And if we are victorious, he will know that we could not have won without him. That may do much to heal him.

"In the meantime, daughter, you have brought us new hope. Did you know that your meeting with Darsint was augured?"

Elega looked at King Joyse sharply. Augured?

Both Terisa and Geraden were grinning.

"Havelock cast an augury," Joyse explained, "in which you appeared, on your knees before Darsint as if you were begging him not to kill you."

Darsint shifted his weight uncomfortably. "She did kneel. I was hurt--out of my head. Couldn't get my eyes in focus. Everything was changed, enemies everywhere. Someone, came, I fired. Nearly God-rotting killed her.

"Then I heard her voice. A woman. On her knees. Felt like shooting myself when I saw what I did to her."

Distinctly, as if he wanted no mistake on this point, he said, ""She saved my life." There was a threat in his tone. He had no intention of letting Myste be harmed again.

For a moment, the King's blue eyes blurred. "When you disappeared from Orison," he continued to Myste, "I knew in my heart where you had gone--and I was afraid. That is why," he explained to Terisa, "I was so harsh with you, when I asked you to account for her absence. I could not resolve my fear of the truth.

"In fact" he went on, addressing Myste again, "when I first realized the champion in Master Gilbur's glass was the same as the figure in Havelock's augury, I almost decided to shatter that glass. To spare you. So that Darsint would not be translated. Havelock had great difficulty dissuading me. Allowing that translation to take place--trusting the risks I had chosen--" His smile was sad and relieved and strong all at the same time. "That did not come easily. If I had let the Fayle urge me to stop the Congery, my determination might have faltered."

Geraden cleared his throat. "Adept Havelock tried to tell us about that augury--tried to tell Terisa. I'm still not sure why. All he managed to do at the time was scare us. But maybe he was trying to make us understand you better. As well as he could, in his condition--"

Dryly, King Joyse replied, "Perhaps. Don't underestimate him. At his worst, he's still the best hop-board player I know."
User avatar
shadowbinding shoe
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 1477
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:33 am

Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Thank you, Cord Hurn. Those were good quotes (what MN quotes aren't :) )

Fooling Terisa was an impossible task. Terisa came with fresh eyes to Mordant. Alien eyes even. Joyce spent years impregnating his subjects' and enemies' minds with his false persona. Little mistakes (which are inevitable even for the best of actors) were ignored due to that or deemed fleeting flashes of the man he once was. For Terisa, everything he did was new and telling, the negative opinions of the Mordanites just new opinions she needed to take into consideration but not something stamped into her. What's more, Joyce and his agents revealed themselves to her in their efforts to know her and recruit her into their ranks. Lastly, Terisa has keen eyes for character and hidden truths.

It's interesting you bring up Adept Havelock in both quotes. We don't see it in the books, but Havelock was the instigator and mastermind behind King Joyce long act. And Havelock was mad, Mad, MAD! So Joyce must've trusted him despite of it and believed his mind still worked despite his raving and wild eyes. Joyce trust. He trusted Geraden and Terisa and the rest. But I'm sure he had doubts from time to time. Even though Havelock was his mentor and still won every game of hop-board they played. Maybe his clever scheme was the raving of a mandman and he was leading them all to doom. Who wouldn't think it? Perhaps that's why they played hop board on and on through the years in his decaying throne-room, to prove to both of them that Havelock was still making sense. That their dire plot was right and a good future was still possible.
A little knowledge is still better than no knowledge.
User avatar
Cord Hurn
Servant of the Band
Posts: 7630
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:08 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Cord Hurn »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Perhaps that's why they played hop board on and on through the years in his decaying throne-room, to prove to both of them that Havelock was still making sense. That their dire plot was right and a good future was still possible.
That's a good point, Shoe, that the point of their frequent hop-board games, besides being to fool people into thinking King Joyse had lost interest in Mordant's affairs, was for the King to keep testing Havelock's abilities with regards to strategy. That's certainly possible!
User avatar
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton
Posts: 61651
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:17 am
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Post by Avatar »

Not sure his overturning of the board would reassure me on that point... ;)

--A
Post Reply

Return to “Mordant's Need”