AATE, part 1, chapter 2: Unfinished Needs

ROTE, FR, AATE, TLD

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Post by Vraith »

Barnetto wrote: that Longwrath had indeed had an incident of "earthsight" and had "seen" the need to kill a woman wielding white gold in the Land but his interpretation had failed and that he was now tracking down Linden when he should have been tracking down Joan.)
I know I had that idea, I might not have been the only one...and I loved it, it made so much sense, the journey even matched the map of the world...alas, it seems I as completely wrong.
But, yea...I didn't much like the "it was set up by the elo" thing...there isn't an inconsistency...but there is an awkwardness? I expect deceit/betrayal from the Elo...but this one, just didn't like the method of it.

And HLT: agree completely.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
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Post by wayfriend »

Alas for Linden!

Donaldson has said, "Reading is an interactive process. Readers have always supplied their own interpretations of what they read." And this notion has never been more clear to me than when discussing a chapter about Linden Avery. What someone believes is happening depends so much on what preconceptions they carry when they read it.

I commend you, Savor Dam, on a very fine dissection. I won't say I disagree with some of the points you raise, but I will say that I see things in another light than you. And apparently most everyone else as well. So, I must represent.

The overarching purpose of this chapter seems clear. It's the first Linden chapter since the resurrection. And it ends with the shocking capitulation with the Harrow. The purpose, therefore, is to explain, and to a large degree justify, why Linden has done what she has done, and how the consequences of the resurrection contribute to that decision.

It was really hard for me to see that at first because of the other action that enters and leaves center stage. We have the Dead, we have Infelice, we have the Giants, and we have the succor of Covenant, all interjecting diversions to this central thread.

My impression of this central thread is this: Donaldson is trying to be exceptionally clear about why Linden decides to do what she decides to do. And so every thought that Linden has, Donaldson writes a paragraph. He's being explicit here to the point of epic Donaldson long-windedness.

But that's Donaldson, people. Not Linden. Like Jessica Rabbit, it's the way she's drawn.

Nor do I see any case here for Linden wallowing in self-pity or trying to foist responsibility on others or a lack of confidence. C'mon. Sometimes people cave because they're weak and they could have done better, and sometimes people cave because nothing can stand up to what they are against.

And here's my point about reading and preconceptions: If you come into this chapter thinking Linden is a wuss, then when you read about how the shock of what she has done has caused her to want to give up, you will see her being more of a wuss. But if you come into this chapter thinking Linden has done better than anyone else could have done, then when you read about how the shock of what she has done has caused her to want to give up, you will see a person who tried valiantly but it was all too god-damn impossible.

You will see someone who is insufficient because she is weak, or you will see someone who is insufficient because circumstances are unbeatable.

But if you read what Donaldson writes, you can figure out which way he, at least, sees it. This chapter explains in the greatest detail Linden's dilemma, her thoughts, and her conclusions. This is, as I have said, Linden's One Tree moment. She is facing her best effort and only hope ending in disaster. As far as she knows, there is no hope left. Covenant sees this, and pities her, because he's been there. (And may have even put her there ... but that must wait for a later chapter.)

Linden wants someone to tell her what to do. Why? She has exhausted all the options she could try. Linden wants someone else to save the world. Why? Because she has proven that she can't, beyond the shadow of her own doubt.

Two things Donaldson writes are critical, as I see it.
In Against All Things Ending was wrote:Instead she was crowded to bursting with dismay.

Dismay: not despair. Despair was darkness, the nailed lid of a coffin. Her dismay was a moral convulsion, the shock of seeing her whole reality distorted beyond recognition. She had left any ordinary loss of hope or faith behind as soon as she had realized that Covenant was not whole. Now she felt an appalled chagrin like the onset of concussion, simultaneously paralyzing and urgent. The cost of what she had done dwarfed thought.
In Against All Things Ending was wrote:She loved the Land. She loved Thomas Covenant and Jeremiah. The Ramen and the Ranyhyn and the Giants. Liand and Stave and poor Anele.
No, the Linden I see isn't weak. The Linden I see is strong, just not strong enough.

(Why would Donaldson write about a wuss, anyway?)

When you think about it, these tangential intrusions into the chapter's core theme are related.

At this time, the Dead decide to display a little scene for Linden. Kevin is forgiven. He had to wait 8,000 years, so that his ancestors would forgive him at JUST this time.

Surely, there's a message for Linden in this. Two, that I can see. One, that one can be admirable despite having made a catastrophic choice. And two, that a catastrophic choice from an admirable person isn't going to help Foul.

Hint, hint, Linden. (Hint, hint, reader.)

Then we have Infelice going on and on about the Worm, as if to make Linden feel worse about it than she already does.

But then the Giants arrive, and bear a story about the treachery of the Elohim, one that they JUST found out about. They are dispicable liars who have no qualms about abusing mortal beings.

Hint, hint, Linden. (Hint, hint, reader.)

Finally, we have Covenant, who is brought around just in time to say, "Do any of you have a better idea?"

Hint, hint, Linden. (Hint, hint, reader.)

(And if you believe that Linden is a wuss, then you will see Covenant do this and think, he's lost it. But if you believe Linden is strong but choiceless, then when you read this, you will think, This is what the Timewarden had wanted Linden to do. The preconceptions going in dictate one's interpretation, which become the next chapter's preconceptions.)


I think that, if you come to the end of this chapter, and are not convinced that Linden had no other course of action than the one she takes, you may be in for a bit of a slog. Certainly, you won't recognize that she was maneuvered into a situation where this was her only real choice, when the time comes.
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Post by Savor Dam »

Welcome back, Wayfriend! Long have we awaited your return... :7up:

Good points, as always, from the dean of Chronicles scholarship.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Great summary Savor Dam! I liked the humor you interjected in your dissection.

Wayfriend - I read the long time Linden took to make her decision and her attempt to check all the other options from an in-story perspective. The Harrow and his deal are repugnant to her (as they should be) and she is reluctant to choose them. So she goes to everyone else and begs them, begs them, to give her another choice, another option. But none of them do. They won't tell her where to find her son is and they pronounce the situation with the Worm hopeless.

Now the Elohim are another story. The only way I can credit this revelation about the deal between the Giants and the Elohim is to assume that they had very vague notions what they would do with this future giant. When did they put the geas on Longwrath? It seems uncanny to assume they did it before he was even conceived. Do unborn people in this world even exist before coming into the world? How come he was a normal giant boy as a child then? The most likely time is when he was hit in the head and became the giant he is now.

So what was the purpose of the deal? Maybe they just thought, these giants go about in the world to all those places we don't. They have dealings with important places like the Land and Bhrathair. If we could control one of these sturdy giants it might save us the trouble of sacrificing one of our own to correct some dire wrong.
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Post by Stutty »

Well done SD!
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Post by Stutty »

lurch wrote: I mean..Unfinished Needs..again unfinished Tasks..unfinished chores..unfinished work..etc..but " needs"..Kinda like what Needs To Be Done..uuhmmm.. I have needs,,and they are unfinished..??? Like,,the needs ain't changing..ain't going anywhere..but they are unfinished..Perhaps the fulfilling of the Needs is what is unfinished
Hey Lurchy, did you ever consider "unfinished" in the sense of "raw" or "naked?" The unvarnished truth...the unfinished need?

Just a thought.

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Post by Queen Christine »

wayfriend wrote:Alas for Linden!

Donaldson has said, "Reading is an interactive process. Readers have always supplied their own interpretations of what they read." And this notion has never been more clear to me than when discussing a chapter about Linden Avery. What someone believes is happening depends so much on what preconceptions they carry when they read it.

I commend you, Savor Dam, on a very fine dissection. I won't say I disagree with some of the points you raise, but I will say that I see things in another light than you. And apparently most everyone else as well. So, I must represent.

The overarching purpose of this chapter seems clear. It's the first Linden chapter since the resurrection. And it ends with the shocking capitulation with the Harrow. The purpose, therefore, is to explain, and to a large degree justify, why Linden has done what she has done, and how the consequences of the resurrection contribute to that decision.

It was really hard for me to see that at first because of the other action that enters and leaves center stage. We have the Dead, we have Infelice, we have the Giants, and we have the succor of Covenant, all interjecting diversions to this central thread.

My impression of this central thread is this: Donaldson is trying to be exceptionally clear about why Linden decides to do what she decides to do. And so every thought that Linden has, Donaldson writes a paragraph. He's being explicit here to the point of epic Donaldson long-windedness.

But that's Donaldson, people. Not Linden. Like Jessica Rabbit, it's the way she's drawn.

Nor do I see any case here for Linden wallowing in self-pity or trying to foist responsibility on others or a lack of confidence. C'mon. Sometimes people cave because they're weak and they could have done better, and sometimes people cave because nothing can stand up to what they are against.

And here's my point about reading and preconceptions: If you come into this chapter thinking Linden is a wuss, then when you read about how the shock of what she has done has caused her to want to give up, you will see her being more of a wuss. But if you come into this chapter thinking Linden has done better than anyone else could have done, then when you read about how the shock of what she has done has caused her to want to give up, you will see a person who tried valiantly but it was all too god-damn impossible.

You will see someone who is insufficient because she is weak, or you will see someone who is insufficient because circumstances are unbeatable.

But if you read what Donaldson writes, you can figure out which way he, at least, sees it. This chapter explains in the greatest detail Linden's dilemma, her thoughts, and her conclusions. This is, as I have said, Linden's One Tree moment. She is facing her best effort and only hope ending in disaster. As far as she knows, there is no hope left. Covenant sees this, and pities her, because he's been there. (And may have even put her there ... but that must wait for a later chapter.)

Linden wants someone to tell her what to do. Why? She has exhausted all the options she could try. Linden wants someone else to save the world. Why? Because she has proven that she can't, beyond the shadow of her own doubt.

Two things Donaldson writes are critical, as I see it.
In Against All Things Ending was wrote:Instead she was crowded to bursting with dismay.

Dismay: not despair. Despair was darkness, the nailed lid of a coffin. Her dismay was a moral convulsion, the shock of seeing her whole reality distorted beyond recognition. She had left any ordinary loss of hope or faith behind as soon as she had realized that Covenant was not whole. Now she felt an appalled chagrin like the onset of concussion, simultaneously paralyzing and urgent. The cost of what she had done dwarfed thought.
In Against All Things Ending was wrote:She loved the Land. She loved Thomas Covenant and Jeremiah. The Ramen and the Ranyhyn and the Giants. Liand and Stave and poor Anele.
No, the Linden I see isn't weak. The Linden I see is strong, just not strong enough.

(Why would Donaldson write about a wuss, anyway?)

When you think about it, these tangential intrusions into the chapter's core theme are related.

At this time, the Dead decide to display a little scene for Linden. Kevin is forgiven. He had to wait 8,000 years, so that his ancestors would forgive him at JUST this time.

Surely, there's a message for Linden in this. Two, that I can see. One, that one can be admirable despite having made a catastrophic choice. And two, that a catastrophic choice from an admirable person isn't going to help Foul.

Hint, hint, Linden. (Hint, hint, reader.)

Then we have Infelice going on and on about the Worm, as if to make Linden feel worse about it than she already does.

But then the Giants arrive, and bear a story about the treachery of the Elohim, one that they JUST found out about. They are dispicable liars who have no qualms about abusing mortal beings.

Hint, hint, Linden. (Hint, hint, reader.)

Finally, we have Covenant, who is brought around just in time to say, "Do any of you have a better idea?"

Hint, hint, Linden. (Hint, hint, reader.)

(And if you believe that Linden is a wuss, then you will see Covenant do this and think, he's lost it. But if you believe Linden is strong but choiceless, then when you read this, you will think, This is what the Timewarden had wanted Linden to do. The preconceptions going in dictate one's interpretation, which become the next chapter's preconceptions.)


I think that, if you come to the end of this chapter, and are not convinced that Linden had no other course of action than the one she takes, you may be in for a bit of a slog. Certainly, you won't recognize that she was maneuvered into a situation where this was her only real choice, when the time comes.

THIS! A thousand times THIS! I was a big THOOLAH until I started this book. It wasn't that I thought she was bad and always screwed up. I just found her constant whining absolutely cringe worthy. It drove me nuts. But this whole chapter just changed my entire perception of Linden. There is always going to be a little THOOLAH in me, make that a BIG THOOLAH when it comes to the 2nd Chronicles. But for now, this chapter really made me feel differently.

"But if you believe Linden is strong but choiceless, then when you read this, you will think, This is what the Timewarden had wanted Linden to do." Wayfriend, this describes EXACTLY how I feel!

Edited to say - Nice dissection Savor!
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Post by wayfriend »

Queen Christine wrote:THIS! A thousand times THIS!
:)

(We all have to face our inner THOOLAH, and accept it.)
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Post by dlbpharmd »

I'm re-listening to AATE (the narrator is horrible, btw,) and once again I'm so frustrated by Linden when she screams "why didn't anyone tell me?" Esmer, Infelice, Hyn and Hynyn et al warned her of her deeds, but none of them specifically said "if you do this, you'll wake the Worm." Would she have chosen differently if anyone of them had simply been specific with their warnings?
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Post by wayfriend »

They warned her imprecisely, yes. But I think it's more important (as SRD wrote it as well as how I read it) that no one gave her a better suggestion.

If your house is on fire and your child is inside, you are going to run in, even if it's a dumb idea, because that's the only choice you have. A bystander saying "don't do it!" isn't going to stop you. A bystander saying, "don't do it, when you open the door you will give more oxygen to the fire" isn't going to stop you either. The only thing going to change your mind is a constructive alternative, like a fireman with a mask saying "I'll do it instead".

Lots of people (or beings) warned Linden. But no one suggested something better. So she went with the best plan she had. It's not about Linden didn't listen to them, it's about she listened but it didn't help.

We know the Elohim are sketchy. Linden knows. As far as Linden knew, their advice was probably based on the notion that Foul having Jeremiah was "okay" because it didn't threaten the Arch. Linden would not share that premise, and so their advice wasn't good advice. She had to do something.

The Ranyhyn hinted obliquely that she would do something bad. But they were not clear what. Was Linden supposed to not do anything for fear of not knowing which thing would be bad? Was she supposed to be cautious to the point of inaction?
In [i]Against All Things Ending[/i] was wrote:"Do any of you have a better idea?"

Linden wheeled toward him as if he had reached out and snatched at her arm; as if she had no choice.

While Linden studied him, he turned his gaze on everyone around him. But none of them answered him. Even the Humbled did not. Linden expected them to reiterate their denunciations of her; yet Branl, Galt, and Clyme said nothing. Covenant's authority held them in the same way that it ruled the atmosphere of the hollow.

"In that case" - he sounded sure in spite of his frailty - "I think we should do this Linden's way. She can make this kind of decision. The rest of us can't." After a moment, he found the strength to add, "Mhoram would approve."
Covenant understood this.
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Post by Savor Dam »

wayfriend wrote:
In [i]Against All Things Ending[/i] was wrote:"Do any of you have a better idea?"

Linden wheeled toward him as if he had reached out and snatched at her arm; as if she had no choice.

While Linden studied him, he turned his gaze on everyone around him. But none of them answered him. Even the Humbled did not. Linden expected them to reiterate their denunciations of her; yet Branl, Galt, and Clyme said nothing. Covenant's authority held them in the same way that it ruled the atmosphere of the hollow.

"In that case" - he sounded sure in spite of his frailty - "I think we should do this Linden's way. She can make this kind of decision. The rest of us can't." After a moment, he found the strength to add, "Mhoram would approve."
Covenant understood this.
Indeed. That is why I concluded the chapter dissection (OP of the thread) with that quote and my commentary thereon.
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Post by Skyweir »

wayfriend wrote:
Queen Christine wrote:THIS! A thousand times THIS!
:)

(We all have to face our inner THOOLAH, and accept it.)
hahahahaha :LOLS:
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keep smiling 😊 :D 😊

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Post by Lazy Luke »

In looking for a word to sum up High Lord Kevin's immolation, or redemption, or atonement, or catharsis, or ...
Landswater, will do just fine.
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Post by Lazy Luke »

Carillon noun a set of bells played using a keyboard or by an automatic mechanism similar to a piano roll.
Without doubt my favorite word from this chapter:
The precise yellow-and-orange of their fires
countered the inhuman silver of the krill. Chiming like
the highest bells of a distant carillon, nameless and ineffable,
they alit in throngs on his arms and legs, his torso, his face. Together
they wove health through him, repairing his over-burdened flesh.
Because the krill plays a central role in the first two chapters, albeit muted and as the main source of light:
From chapter 1 - If Covenant allowed himself to drift, he would be able
to watch as though he stood at Loric's side while the dour High Lord
sweated over his incantations and fires -
we now have the precise color of the fires, telling us that Loric had the Waiths to help him forge his magick talisman.
Overture noun 1. an orchestral peice at the beginning of an opera, play etc.
2. a beginning of something more substantial.
We also know that Linden has the toy car in her pocket - and Liand has the orcrest in his.
I imagine the gem at the hilt of Loric's blade to be like the web of a spider, woven and absent of it's maker. So that if Loric's krill were to be unmade, the alloys returned to their constituent ores, the gem would be missing. Neither would it have returned to the deep places of Melenkurion Skyweir, but found tucked safely away inside Liand's pocket.
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