Did the Bloodguard betray the Lords?

[bikebryan]

Do we know if the Unhomed received the gift of tongues?

There is no explicit text-evidence/timeline. There are extractable/implicit reasons to think they would have...but they are loose, and entirely in spoiler territory.
The only known thing that I recall without re-searching/reading from the first chron's that tends that way [and it only helps in conjunction with the other stuff] is that the Giants had significant encounters/transactions with/knowledge of the Elohim and Bhrathair and such a very long time before they ever knew Damelon. And not just ANY Giants...the traveling tribe that ended up meeting Damelon.

My thoughts overlap with WF on this.
The thing quoted on unearned knowledge.
It's impossible in my mind that the Giants didn't recall the words. Remember: All the Giants that raised up Foamfollower KNEW the Old Lords PERSONALLY, for a couple millennia.
They had to know the words. They ALSO knew the words didn't mean crap without other knowledge, AND a little knowledge doesn't make them useful, it makes them dangerous.
[[Side-note/thing I need to ponder---it's just occurred to me that, in these novels, it SEEMS like people are interpreting "perilous" "hazardous," etc. on this issue to mean MIGHT have bad outcomes. All the evidence, however, is that such things WILL, ALWAYS, have bad outcomes. That leads to a whole other realm of consideration/debate, though.]]

IIRC, stories were told in the second chronicles that the Giants from their home (not the Unhomed) heard stories of the Unhomed that decided to stay with the Elohim when they arrived at Elmesndene. This implies very strongly that the Unhomed passed that way first, before other giants, and thus before the gift of tongues was granted. It does make me wonder why they did not share it, but we have no idea when the gift was granted. It could have been after the disaster at Seareach, during the 3000 years between the first/second chronicles.

[Lazy Luke]

I think you're reasoning from a number of false/anti-textual things.

Hi Vraith, as the quoted above followed my post on some ideas I had about the nature of the First Ward, I need to know if I'm missing something.

Are my ideas old news?

[DrPaul]

Here is Honniscrave in TOT on the Elohim and the gift of tongues:

From time to time, their power is given in gift. Such is the gift of tongues, won for our people in a time many and many generations past, yet still unwaning and untainted.

From the First Chronicles we know that Saltheart Foamfollower was born at the time of the RoD, thus about 1000 years before the events of that series, and was in the prime of life during the First Chronicles, which suggests a Giantish lifespan of at least 2000 years if not more. This gives us a benchmark for how long a "generation" would be among Giants.

The Unhomed reached the Land during the time of High Lord Damelon, somewhat less than 3000 and somewhat more than 2000 years before the events of the First Chronicles, and thus roughly 6000 years before the events in TOT. We are not told how long they had been sailing before they reached the Land but it would be a stretch to suggest that it was more than some hundreds of years.

While it is not possible to be precise about any of this, I think we can infor from the foregoing that when Honniscrave was referring to a time "many and many generations past" he meant a time before the journey of the Unhomed.

[Lazy Luke]

Here is Honniscrave in TOT on the Elohim and the gift of tongues:

From time to time, their power is given in gift. Such is the gift of tongues, won for our people in a time many and many generations past, yet still unwaning and untainted.

Which is precisely my point. If the Giants are the Fire Lions, and the First Ward is the knowledge of "calling them", then the ramifications are very, very revealing.

For example, the Fire Lions may show how the Giants conceived and constructed Revelstone. Give the graveling a direct link to the white gold. And more importantly, prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Thomas Covenant did not rape Lena.

So my question still stands, is this old news?

[Ur Dead]

I can not believe the Giants had anything to do with the Fire Lions.
The Giants were not in the Land during the time of Berek. It was his son who discovered the Giants.
The Chronicles show that the Giants had a "lore" of manipulating stone.
It may have been inborn to their race like the Haruchai had with martial arts
and leverage and a stronger physical people.

Maybe SRD can only answer this.
Did the Bloodguard/Haruchai ever hear all seven words?
With their time around Kevin and the other Lords at that time I suspect they did.
The new Lords knew that there were seven words but didn't know all of them.
Didn't any one of the new Lords ever make the connection? Ask the Bloodguard if they knew the remaining words? They knew the Bloodguard was old. They knew the Bloodguard knew Kevin. Were the new Lords so dense in their insight that within the reforming of the Lords, one bright one
would have asked?
Elena it seems showed some talent to force an issue. She question Bannor
were his oath lay. To dead Kevin or to the existing lords. That's how she learned about "The Power of Command". Things heard within whispers by the old lords and they(Bloodguard) remembered.

Maybe the question should have been.
Were the Lords Hampered or Lore Idiots?

Another thing.. if the Bloodguard did not like sword or arrow(Physical weapons) or Lore(a weapon in their eyes) Why did Bannor force Thomas ring hand to touch the Staff of Law? Did he KNOW what would happen?
The power required to bring forth the Fire Lions? That is lore within itself.
Berek brought the Fire Lions by using the seven words Prothall was trying to use the Lore he knew but was under power to do so.
So it go back at that point.. If the Bloodguard knew the missing words and told Prothall maybe the wild magic wouldn't have been needed.
Would it have broken the Bloodguard vow? They set an oath to protect and preserve the Lords. Or maybe it was the oath that made the Bloodguard betray the Lords. By holding back on knowledge the Lords need to grow.
The Lords were hindered by the Oath of Peace from discovering the extant of
Kevin's lore so knowing the seven wouldn't have advance them too much.

[wayfriend]

Why did Bannor force Thomas ring hand to touch the Staff of Law? Did he KNOW what would happen?

That, right there, is a very odd thing. It doesn't fit with anything else.

A closer reading of the text shows that Covenant was reaching for the staff, but he couldn't close on it because his head was wonky. Banner cried "We cannot permit this end," and then helped him complete the gesture. Then boom.

Why was Covenant reaching for it?
Why does Bannor help him?

These things are mysteries. And a bit at odds with other things we know. (Which would constitute authorial errors not plot details IMO.)

Mhoram had demanded that Covenant use his ring, and thrust it on his finger. Covenant replies by handing Mhoram his knife and proclaiming it would be better if Mhoram killed him. Mhoram feels remorse and relents.

And then Covenant softens his position. Couldn't he find a way to help? He reaches for the staff. Then he considers what this would cost him. He hesitates. That's when Bannor leaps in.

We have no way of knowing if Banner knew something specific would happen. Or if he only saw Covenant hesitate, and so he pushed him along, not knowing what Covenant would accomplish, only caring that he try.

We have know way of knowing what Covenant intended. He was brain-bashed, seeing double, he may not have been thinking anything clearly. He may only have remembered the sheet of flame under Mount Thunder, and intuited something might happen. Or he may only have been trying to grasp the staff as a gesture to Mhoram that he would try. Perhaps he thought that Mhoram could guide him with his ring if he grasped the Staff.

It may be that any flare of power was sufficient to summon the Lions. It may be that Bannor shaped that flare to specifically call them. It may be that Covenant shaped it, conciously or unconciously. Or the Staff did. Or Mhoram, who was also holding the Staff, did.

The next time Covenant grasped the Staff, it was destroyed. But not this earlier time. He or his ring knew it was a danger to him then. So did he or it know it needed rescue this time? And that's how the Lions were summoned, by a plea to the heavens for someone or something to rescue them, not directed specifically at the Lions at all? That is, just as it was with Berek?

Mysteries.

[Lazy Luke]

It may be that any flare of power was sufficient to summon the Lions.

That's it. Berek made a pact with the earth to invoke the Fire Lions.
So too it seems did Covenant.
The Ring and the Staff both belonged to Covenant, this much I'm sure. Because Mhoram had said to Covenant that he was the white gold, and the Great Horses of Ra told Covenant that he was the Staff of Law - both talismans together can directly touch the Heart of the Land - the power that preserves!

"The Power of Command"

I'm sure the "power of command" was really Hile Troy's. It just seems very logical. Thats why the quest for the Seventh Ward was doomed to fail right from the start. Covenant knew this but couldn't care less.
I suspect the Bloodgaurd also knew this. It seems their mandate required no less of them, and the choices they made in the Ilearth War were the right ones.

I can not believe the Giants had anything to do with the Fire Lions.

Remember that Foamfollower was able to immerse himself in Hotash Slay and survive.

[Ur Dead]

After mulling some time over this I figured that the Bloodguard were acting
just like the Masters. They couldn't stop the current people from gaining lore.
They weren't in charge. But they wouldn't volunteer any information reguarding
lore to the new Lords. Talk about consistency.

[Lazy Luke]

Why did Bannor force Thomas' ring hand to touch the Staff of Law? Did he KNOW what would happen?

That, right there, is a very odd thing. It doesn't fit with anything else.

Yes it does fit. The Bloodguard have done many odd unexpected things throughout the Chronicles.
Bannor had known High Lord Kevin, and I'll betcha' white gold dollars he had a hand in assembling his Seven Wards.

Somewhere in the GI SRD has elluded to all four ancient Lords: Berek, Damelon, Loric, and Kevin, being on the High Council all at the same time. Obviously because of the healing power preserved in the Land, which extends life.

Bannor had to have known Berek in some capacity, and the facts hidden within the mysteries of the Legend of Berek Halfhand.

[wayfriend]

I don't think Donaldson said anywhere that all the old Lords were alive at the same time. I think that's incorrect. And there are many points in the story which contradict this idea.

Looking back on what I said earlier, the explanation that fits best is that Covenant was thinking of the battle of Soaring Woodhelven. In his hands, combined with his ring, the staff he had in that battle was a potent weapon. Donaldson added that detail for a reason. So later, on the slopes of Mt Thunder, it makes sense that Covenant's idea, possibly his only idea, for helping save his friends would be to grab a bigger, better staff and start smiting down foes. It's really the only constructive thing he knew his ring could do at this point.

It makes sense, then, that Bannor would catch on. He sees Covenant trying and failing to grab the staff, and intuits immediately what he's trying to do. The Bloodguard were at that battle. He would grasp what Covenant+ring+Staff equalled, for the same reasons. So his intervention is explained that way - he thought their best chance was for Covenant to grab the Staff and start smiting foes.

The mistake, I believe, is thinking that Covenant's reach, and Banner's intervention, were chosen because they believed it would turn defeat into victory. I don't think this is the case. I think it only means that they believed any act was better than none. Bannor could accept defeat, but he could not accept not trying everything that could be tried.

I don't think either of them expected the firelion outcome, and I don't think the story demands that they did. Covenant's ring always exerts power which produces unexpected outcomes, because all his power is unconscious and reflexive at this point.

I think a key underlying point in this scene is "the power of choice". In this series, what's important is remembering you have the power to choose if you have nothing else. This scene demonstrates that as long as you keep choosing to fight and never choose to fail, you can win.

[Lazy Luke]

Mmm...the battle of Soaring Woodhelvin! I dunno. Maybe theres something about the staff+ring that refocused Covenant's vision for a moment. If it weren't for the fact that TC was suckerpunched and brought to his knees by the realization of him not raping Lena. In that gut-wrenching moment he knew he had to fight. Bannor saw this, and backed his choice.

I know you guys don't like the idea of Thomas Covenant having not raped Lena. It pulls the rug out from under everything that holds them Chronicles together.

[wayfriend]

I don't dislike it. But I disagree with it. It goes against every comment the author ever made about his work. That being said, if it makes the story work for you, then go for it. There is no "wrong" here. So I'm not going to criticize you for believing what you believe. But I'm not going to participate in those lines of discussion, either. That's for people who want to consider it. In other words, the best way for me to honor your opinion is to shut up.

[Lazy Luke]

I don't think Donaldson said anywhere that all the old Lords were alive at the same time. I think that's incorrect. And there are many points in the story which contradict this idea.

You're correct, he never said they were. He said it was possible because the Old Lords were so long lived. Please do give one of the many points that disprove this ... oh that's right, you've shut up!

Naturally any author would stand by their artistic deceptions.
Unraveling mysteries and unlocking Kevin's Wards are strictly for the reader.