The Problem of Free Will and the Point of Prayer.

[Vraith]

Suffering RUINS a dozen people/lives for every person it leads down a garden path to "hope."
It's as wrong-headed as the delusion that corporal punishment is ever good or necessary for children [or anyone else, for that matter.]

[peter]

Agreed; I don't buy into that "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger" rubbish. In the main in creates bitter broken people by grinding the essential humanity out of them.

[Skyweir]

First totally agree with V

Its a corruption of sensibility imo .. ie corporal punishment is a beneficial tool. It isnt even s beneficial tool with animals.

Those who weather challenges well are described as resilient, depending on the challenges, many who survive significant "challenges" well, do develop resilience. There is no need for a divine being to being resilient.

V is absolutely correct, many dont suffer challenges well, some just suffer, are worn down and some seek the relief of suicide.

God is not the supreme answer to life's problems. We encounter sooo many counterfeits, god is one of them. God, religion, the questing for one's purpose can lead you a thousand miles, or thousands upon thousands of miles, and at the end the reality is YOU and a life not truly lived.

I think if you have questions re ones purpose, life and the universe... all the answers are already within you. Time wasted supplicating a non existent entity could be spent with the people that surround you, your partner, family, friends, changing your environment, making memories, being free from the shackles of religious ideology.

Linna, I am happy to talk to you offline, but I have nothing to fear from being observed. I will speak the same truth in public, that I will in private. And my respect and regard for you will not change. I see you as a human I like, not a religious ideology I do not agree with, for me in my life.

I was made aware today of the problem of intervention in the following way; Just where, exactly, would we have God intervene? Would we, for example say that he should prevent the massive disasters - the tsunamis and earthquakes - but then stop short of everything else. Or would we draw the line at a lower level - the school shootings and other tragedies for example - but draw the line at say preventing people dying of cancer. Pretty soon we'd have God stopping me from cutting my finger in the kitchen chopping potatoes and the world would not be as it is at all. Instead we'd live in a place somewhat like that picture on the front of The Watchtower magazine where the lion lies down with the lamb - and nice though that might look in the picture form, I'm not sure I'd want to live there. It matters not where you choose to draw the line on God's remit for intervention, the moral dilemma that those on opposite sides of the line are being treated differently still exists. It's food for thought in respect of what we might expect from a loving God if we wish to retain even a thread of freedom in our being.

It matters not a whit Pete. God does not intervene. God does not save houses from a Forrest fire. If some survive it is due to a stroke of fortune, not a miracle from god.

That is the only way in my view to explain why bad things happen to "good people", why good things happen to "bad people".

Is there a grand purpose to everything? I dont think so. I believe we make our own purpose, are the captains of our own lives. We choose the actions in life that mostly all have positive, negative or neutral consequences.

It would seem to me, that all religious ideologies prioritise the "next life", so their focus isnt so much on the here and now but some unclear eternal future.
We must obey god, why? To secure a coveted place in heaven. We must be loving, kind, generous with our time, talents and resources in the "service of god and our fellow man", why? To secure a coveted spot in heaven. To be able to access the eternities, to live forever.

We mustnt have extramarital sex, lie, cheat, steal, murder, why? To secure a coveted spot in heaven. We mustn't self pleasure, explore our sexuality, even in private, why? To secure a coveted place in heaven. We must not even THINK impurely, lest we do not secure a coveted place in heaven.

If we are religious we must ensure our WORTHINESS above all else, why? To ensure a coveted spot in heaven.

If youre a Mormon, you mustn even drink tea, coffee, alcohol, smoke pot, and not that any Mormon ever does, youre supposed to eat meat sparingly, consume fruits and vegetables in their season ... and contradictively bottle fruit and preserve vegetables and food stuffs to consume out of their season.

So a religious person's entire life is lived for an unknown tomorrow.

The best of themselves is mostly freely given for the promise of a better future, with the clear exception of the coercive tactics used by religion. And cue the shame/guilt paradigm. To ensure control of the ... actually ... dwindling masses .. it is absolutely necessary that religious leaders expound sermons, lectures demanding obedience and sacrifice to god via the churches.

Calling their ... dwindling masses to live IN the world, but not be OF the world ... cos the world is a Babylonian bad place .. odd really given the beauty of Babylon. Nevertheless, god requires a pure heart and each church defines what that actually is, and what that looks like. It's giving generously to the churches, serving the interests of god when serving one's fellow "man".

The churches do have truly awesome principles, I see much good arising from various churches. If not theyd be too easy to identify as fraudulent vacuous bodies. They stood throughout time as reminders to society of the need for ethics and a degree of integrity.

Maybe I'm too jaded by falsehoods .. but I praise the praiseworthy whenever I see it .. but as to an overriding life purpose, I do not look to religion or gods for my answers, I look to myself. Because at the end of the day I must answer to my own conscience.

[SoulBiter]

First, a lack of corporal punishment works when applied correctly. My parents used it and we all turned out just fine with no underlying mental health issues. We also learned a respect for authority and a respect for adults. I used corporal punishment on my kids and they are fully functional adults without underlying mental health issues.


Wow... at least for Christianity you have it all wrong Sky. Its no wonder you turned your back on the teaching you received in that context. You don't have to be worthy. You don't have to measure up. You don't have not put aside your happiness today for some unknown place in heaven. Your ability to be worthy cannot bring God Glory. That kind of legalism was exactly what Christ came to put a stop to. If you believe that being a Christian is living your life based on a "checklist' of do's and don't's that somehow give you a free pass into heaven then you don't understand Christianity at all.

The idea of being loving, kind, generous with our time, talents and resources in the "service of god and our fellow man" are all fruits of a changed heart that has accepted Christ. But no where does it say that somehow your worthiness gets you into heaven. In fact Jesus teaching says the opposite. Jesus gives us a gift, freely given. You either accept it or not.

[Vraith]

First, a lack of corporal punishment works when applied correctly. My parents used it and we all turned out just fine with no underlying mental health issues. We also learned a respect for authority and a respect for adults. I used corporal punishment on my kids and they are fully functional adults without underlying mental health issues.

Well, it caused at least one underlying issue: turned you into the kind of person who believes corporal punishment works.

The overwhelming weight of evidence/research shows that AT BEST people [adult or children] and even animals, "learn" IN SPITE of the punishment, not because of it.
And that's the most positive outcome.
Effects are negative or nothing...none are positive.

[SoulBiter]

First, a lack of corporal punishment works when applied correctly. My parents used it and we all turned out just fine with no underlying mental health issues. We also learned a respect for authority and a respect for adults. I used corporal punishment on my kids and they are fully functional adults without underlying mental health issues.

Well, it caused at least one underlying issue: turned you into the kind of person who believes corporal punishment works.

The overwhelming weight of evidence/research shows that AT BEST people [adult or children] and even animals, "learn" IN SPITE of the punishment, not because of it.
And that's the most positive outcome.
Effects are negative or nothing...none are positive.

I've looked at these studies and they are flawed in too many ways. The control groups are not truly controlled and what they call corporal punishment varies wildly from study to study and indeed inside the same studies. Even among parents in the studies it was difficult to gauge from one parent to another what constituted corporal punishment, how often it was administered, what other punishments were used in the households and what the emotional state of the parent was at the time corporal punishment was used, and what type of follow up from the punishment occurred.

Anecdotally my observations show that corporal punishment when used appropriately worked very well. You know what doesnt work well? Making CP the primary and/or the only punishment used.

[Skyweir]

And therein lies the point .. that CP doesn't work well as the primary or only punishment.

I can see how it would be difficult to establish a static control group .. but one would think that those conducting the .. so called studies .. would establish a series of terms of reference and parameters to enable such a study to effectively track the value of CP.

My guess is a sound study conducted by an accredited scientists would address such issues.

I agree with V .. corporal punishment does not work. And as you yourself have implied there are other ways to teach and other ways for children and adults to learn, and in my view they are better more efficient methods .. ie teaching consequences, providing incentives and disincentives, the carrot works better than a stick imv

As to christianity .. ok so different views of Christianity .. you believe that man is saved by grace ... not works. I was not raised with such teachings. Christianity for me has always been .. by their works you shall know them... approach.

So that is interesting right there isn't it? What then aggregates Christianity?

Some religions believe one thing and others another.

I know that Mormonism demanded compliance, being actively engaged in a good cause, giving ones time, resources and talents to the work of god .. and that work was quite arguably expansive.

And it was absolutely to earn you a place in the eternities. And all Christians believe in the judgement right? And that not only ones acts one will be held to account for but also ones thoughts?

And if you do believe in a judgement, then what is its purpose? If we all just get a free pass by accepting Christs sacrifice and atonement .. then what are we judged for?

[SoulBiter]

I agree with V .. corporal punishment does not work. And as you yourself have implied there are other ways to teach and other ways for children and adults to learn, and in my view they are better more efficient methods .. ie teaching consequences, providing incentives and disincentives, the carrot works better than a stick imv

You would be wrong to say it does not work. It does work and if I implied anything else, it was not intended. What I pointed out was that you cannot use it as your only means of discipline. Just like "timeout" by itself would not work if used for all discipline, or "retriction" i.e. restricting access to the things you like or want to do, would not work if that was the only discipline.

As to christianity .. ok so different views of Christianity .. you believe that man is saved by grace ... not works. I was not raised with such teachings. Christianity for me has always been .. by their works you shall know them... approach.

So that is interesting right there isn't it? What then aggregates Christianity?

Some religions believe one thing and others another.

I know that Mormonism demanded compliance, being actively engaged in a good cause, giving ones time, resources and talents to the work of god .. and that work was quite arguably expansive.

And it was absolutely to earn you a place in the eternities. And all Christians believe in the judgement right? And that not only ones acts one will be held to account for but also ones thoughts?

And if you do believe in a judgement, then what is its purpose? If we all just get a free pass by accepting Christs sacrifice and atonement .. then what are we judged for?

There is so much that is mistaken in what you wrote about Christianity. I am not surprised you fell away from your faith. If it were possible to 'earn' your way into Heaven then Jesus death was unnecessary.

Peter was chosen by Jesus to follow him as a disciple. Peter was a flawed, unfaithful servant who fell away from his faith at a time when he said he would follow Jesus unto death. After denying Jesus three times, running away, showing his disbelief in what Jesus had foretold to him, ended up going back to his old life of being a fisherman. Even after all of that, the resurrected Jesus visits him and calls to him from shore and tells him where to cast his nets. Peter finally recognizes him and jumps in the water and swims for shore. This broken, damaged, unfaithful, cowardly man who turned aside from Jesus at a time when he said he would never do so, was visited by the resurrected Jesus. Jesus had him sit by the fire and warm himself, and they ate breakfast together. Peter was not compliant and liar and sinner who denied even knowing him. Yet Jesus came to him and forgave him.

You speak of works. Works without faith is empty. Faith without works is empty. But faithful works or 'fruit' are those things you do joyfully as a follower of Jesus. Not a checklist that must be accomplished before you are allowed into heaven.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body [a]to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

That entire part of the Bible tells us that you cant checklist your way into Heaven.

I know that many here dont believe. But I am saddened when I hear that someone has been incorrectly versed in what Christianity is.

[Skyweir]

Yes even Mormons believe that love is essential. And the works are their fruits that are performed with love and faith that it is gods will.

But you failed to answer my question, if all that is needed is grace through Jesus, why is there a judgement? What purpose does it serve?

I left my church because I learned of its falsehood, not because subjective or semantic interpretations of the bible. And if love is key to all things, one can possess love without any need to belong to a religion.

As to punishment, you claim restrictions etc are not enough .. yet I raised 7 kids without corporal punishment.. and they are fine independent capable members of society.

So this would seem to counter your assertion. I am not alone in that, I know many parents who raised their kids the exact same way ie without CP .. and those kids know respect and show it.

Maybe you think that because that because that was your preferred parenting model .. but kids dont NEED to be raised with CP and to my mind those who use CP show a lack of appropriate parenting skills.

I dont need to smack a child for them to know something is or was wrong. If CP worked, they would never have banned it in schools, the armed services, and removed it from punitive aspects of the justice system.

Why? Just for the fun of it? No, SB ... based on a large body of sound defensible research.

What CP teaches, is its ok to hurt kids, to assault them, if you will. Fundamentally thats what youre doing. You were raised that way, and thats why you believe its ok. But it is certainly not necessary. Children can be raised without violence. Raising a child with violence, simply teaches violence and fear of violence.

But its intriguing to me, how do you reconcile that belief with the following biblical passages?

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

[SoulBiter]

If you accept Jesus you dont have to worry about the judgement. But if not you do.

I'm glad not using CP worked for you. CP worked for me. I could give less than a crap what your so called "body of evidence" says. I have explained to you how these studies are flawed but you believe how you wish. know it worked for my parents and for me, and my children use it on theirs. You raise your children how you want and you leave me to mine.

Those verses have nothing to do with child discipline.

You left the Church because of falsehoods and I agree that is probably correct because you misunderstand Christianity.

[Rawedge Rim]

Yes even Mormons believe that love is essential. And the works are their fruits that are performed with love and faith that it is gods will.

But you failed to answer my question, if all that is needed is grace through Jesus, why is there a judgement? What purpose does it serve?

I left my church because I learned of its falsehood, not because subjective or semantic interpretations of the bible. And if love is key to all things, one can possess love without any need to belong to a religion.

Yes even Mormons believe that love is essential. And the works are their fruits that are performed with love and faith that it is gods will.

But you failed to answer my question, if all that is needed is grace through Jesus, why is there a judgement? What purpose does it serve?

I left my church because I learned of its falsehood, not because subjective or semantic interpretations of the bible. And if love is key to all things, one can possess love without any need to belong to a religion.

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

I'm gonna take stab at this.

1. Why is there judgement?

Well I could just fall back on that old parental phrasology "Because God says so", and there are a number of scriptures to back that up:

"For we must all appear before the Judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense; according to what he did in the body, whether it be good or evil" (2 Corinthians 10).

"It is appointed that human beings die once, and after this, the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).

"For we shall all stand before the judgment Seat of God...so [then] each of us shall give an account of himself [to God]" (Romans 14:10; 12)

But it also goes to the verse you partially quoted, taken from Mathew 25:31

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepard separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me."

Then the righteous will answer him and say "Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty and give you drink? When did see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?"

And the King will say to them in reply, "Amen, Isay to you, watever you did for one these least brothers of mine, you did for me."

And then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you accursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, and a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me."

Even the Catholic Church has stated that one cannot "work themselves into heaven". However, as the verses above intimate, one cannot just sit on thier ass saying "Lord I have faith" and expect for the Pearly Gates to open up. As the Church has stated for centuries "Faith without works is dead".

James 2:19

You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God.....Thou dost well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

2. On the subject of CP......here I have to deferr to SB on the subject. The fact that non-CP worked for your children is awesome, and I won't say anything against success. However CP has worked all over the world for millenia, and still works over most of the planet. I believe it works best when used without anger, fairly, and in a consistent manner, with the reason for the punishment made known before and after said punishment. When used arbitrarily, in anger, etc. no punishment system works real well.

3. The military can use CP under certain circumstances, especially during conflict in-theater. It just isn't allowed under normal conditions.

[Rawedge Rim]

Suffering RUINS a dozen people/lives for every person it leads down a garden path to "hope."
It's as wrong-headed as the delusion that corporal punishment is ever good or necessary for children [or anyone else, for that matter.]

suffering for no purpose certainly ruins people.

However, who gets strong without some suffering? Can you run long distances, or pick up heavy weights, or even play sports at a high level, with out suffering through training that often is painful?

Basic Military Training and advanced Military Training often involves suffering. It's not designed to ruin people, but to toughen them up to withstand the rigours of what may come.

Then there is the example of Pope John Paul II, who suffering from Parkinsons Disease, still when about his duties, as an example to others to preservere, even in the face of adversity.

Suffering for suffering sake though is meaningless.