TOT-Chapter 9: The Gift of the Forestal

[Dragonlily]

Spoiler

*cracking up at all the spoiler patches*

What is most mystifying with the Elohim and what makes it dificult to discuss without spoilers is that everything they say is directed forward in history.

Insightful of you. Very true. It puts us in the position of having to wait until the end of WGW to discuss Chapters 9 and 10.

[caamora]

Do you all realize how crazy we will be when we get the new books?!!

We will have to start a whole new section for them!

[Haruchai]

Man, we are gonna go WILD when the new books come out!! (at least, I will be!!!!!!)
I know, you probably all think I am getting too excited Mum thinks I am obssesssed, but I don't really care
When Danlo was saying that no one was replying to the Dissections: I can never think of anything inciteful to say!!! I read your comments and I'm always like: God, I wish I could think of something good to say!!!
Anyway, great Dissection Kastenessen!!

[matrixman]

You have nothing "inciteful" to say, Haruchai? Nice double entendre there!

Talk of the Elohim's limitations and lack of wisdom brings up another question. In the days of the Land's One Forest, the Elohim had sent an Appointed to merge with the will of the Forest in the form of the Colossus to deny the Ravers access to the Upper Land. So, the threat the Ravers posed was serious enough in the eyes of the Elohim that they took action. That's all fine and well.

But what about the destruction of the Staff of Law in TPTP? Wasn't that also a pretty serious problem? If the Staff was that critical in sustaining the Law of Earthpower in the Land, why didn't the Elohim put forth their power to "mend" the hole in the fabric of the Law caused by the Staff's demise, and do it before Foul had the opportunity to corrupt the Earthpower? Were the Elohim unwilling or unable? Is this evidence of their limitations or lack of wisdom? What was the relationship between the Elohim--Earthpower incarnate, and the Staff--Law incarnate?

[Haruchai]

I knew that wasn't right!! how do you spell 'inciteful?' I'm having a mental block, lol.

[Dragonlily]

insightful

[Haruchai]

LOL. Thanks Joy.
Do I feel stupid, its obvious now!

[Furls Fire]

Well, let me tell ya, "inciteful" seems to be an appropriate term. These Elohim incite ire in me everytime I get to their part in the story!

But what about the destruction of the Staff of Law in TPTP? Wasn't that also a pretty serious problem? If the Staff was that critical in sustaining the Law of Earthpower in the Land, why didn't the Elohim put forth their power to "mend" the hole in the fabric of the Law caused by the Staff's demise, and do it before Foul had the opportunity to corrupt the Earthpower? Were the Elohim unwilling or unable? Is this evidence of their limitations or lack of wisdom? What was the relationship between the Elohim--Earthpower incarnate, and the Staff--Law incarnate?

I've had this same question, MM!! The loss of the Staff in TPTP opened the door for Foul to corrupt the Earthpower. My guess is this, since the corruption of it was so insidious and gradual, (it took thousands of years for Foul to regain his strength), maybe it went unnoticed by the Elohim for such a long time that they never realized that Foul's seeds of corruption also infested them. And by the time they did realized the peril, it had grown too large.

Foul was gone, or so they thought, they and the Earthpower were safe, or so they thought. Their "minds" or "being" were turned toward other things. And sometimes you don't know your walking around diseased until you are critical and the infection has spread itself throughout your entire body. The slow snaking infection crawling about unnoticed until it decides to manifest itself. I don't claim to understand the Elohim at all, even after as many times as I've read the Chrons, they still baffle the heck out me. So, I'm just guessing with all this.

[matrixman]

Good point, Furls. It makes sense that if the corruption was gradual enough, then maybe even the Elohim wouldn't have noticed something was wrong. I just thought they would have at least "felt" the destruction of the Staff, since it was such a powerful tool of Earthpower.

Maybe I'm viewing the Elohim falsely: I think of them as being in tune with the Earthpower the way the Jedi in Star Wars are in tune with the Force. When there is any disturbance in the Force anywhere, a Jedi feels it immediately. So I figured it was the same with the Elohim: they would feel any "tremor" in the Earthpower, such as one caused by the Staff's destruction. I think I assume too much about the Earthpower: perhaps it does not operate at all like the Force, so you could not really "feel" it the way you felt the energy field of the Force.

[Dragonlily]

Well, the change in the Earthpower did get Elohim like Chant exploring their own darker side. They seem to have reacted to it from their own personal preoccupations.

[Haruchai]

keep an eye on Vain, folks--nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more.

LOL!! Love Monty Python quotes.

[Durris]

One question that can be asked during all "Elohim-chapters" is; if Lord Foul got to the Elohim and changed some of them somehow, what did he do? Could you say that the silencing of TC a work of his doing or did it take some other form, like Chant asking the ring of TC( but not suceeding)? Or just sowing this split among them. It doesn't feel like the silencing is his doing anyway, Foul want's TC to be able to destroy the AoT, not going around powerless doing nothing...

Although Linden did warn Covenant "Foul got here first," I have my doubts that Foul is directly responsible for what's going on among the Elohim. They are more than capable of their own secret purposes and manipulations of other beings. And if Earthpower, even in this pure and transcendent concentration, can't be used to fight Despite, then it would seem to follow that Despite can't act directly on self-aware Earthpower.

My idea of the darkness on the Elohim, and the resulting dissent among them, is the old saw of pride going before a fall.

In every system dealing with the supernatural side of life (mythologies, fantasies, religions) there are the moral and the ontological domains. Most supernatural entities blend "ethics" and "(magical) power" in some proportion. I think the Elohim are far to the ontological end of the spectrum, and because of their preoccupation with self-contemplation of their own power, have allowed their vision of, and capacity to follow, their ethical Wurd to become distorted.

Incidentally to this chapter, but not incidentally to the mythos, just as the Elohim are Earthpower, the Haruchai are good faith. As regards their own world view, they operate exclusively in the moral and physical domains, not the ontological. (This purity itself gives them a larger ontological presence than they perhaps take account of, but they neither wield supernatural power on purpose [the Vow was a moral act so large that it went ontological] nor are as susceptible to it [when directed at them by other beings] as their human stature would suggest.) Their concentration on the moral domain gives them a blind spot to genuine ontological hazards, witness Brinn, Cail et al. bodily attacking the Elohim, not to mention Korik picking up the Illearth Stone .

[danlo]

see my offering on this subject in the chapter 10 Dissection

[kastenessen]

But what about the destruction of the Staff of Law in TPTP? Wasn't that also a pretty serious problem? If the Staff was that critical in sustaining the Law of Earthpower in the Land, why didn't the Elohim put forth their power to "mend" the hole in the fabric of the Law caused by the Staff's demise, and do it before Foul had the opportunity to corrupt the Earthpower? Were the Elohim unwilling or unable? Is this evidence of their limitations or lack of wisdom? What was the relationship between the Elohim--Earthpower incarnate, and the Staff--Law incarnate?

I have a theory about the SoL and the Elohim and it is sprung out of what Chant and Findail says.

Chant says in chapter 10 about Vain:

He was a peril to us. His dark makers spawned him for our harm. He was an offence to our Wurd, directed with great skill and malice to coerce us from our path. This we will never endure, just as we will never endure your anile desires. We have imprisoned him.

And now *spoiler alert*:

Spoiler

We who have read the chrons know that Findail and Vain will merge to create the new SoL. This seem to be something the Elohim does not see as a path to be desired, or in other words that they don't want to see "one of them" imprisoned in the Staff. The quote "His dark makers spawned him for our harm." must be a reference to this.

There is a paradox woven into this because later Findail says in chapter 12. (I think I can quote this because we're into that chapter right now aren't we?)

The Elohim do not tamper with the life of the Earth. There is no life without structure. We respect the workings of that structure in every guise.

Followed by Lindens analysis:

Structure, Linden thought. Law. They are who they are. Their might is matched by their limitations....Chaos was death. Energy could not exist without constriction. If the Lawless power of the Sunbane grew too strong, it might unbind the very foundations of the Earth.

Yes, the Elohim don't want to interfere in wordly matters and Linden realises that a new SoL is necessary. Didn't their vision expand to this fact, or are they (again) not wise enough?

It might have been like this, that Kevin or someone before him "imprisoned" a being into the Staff, to create or uphold the Law, in a place called the Land , a place on the Earth where the Earthpower was more "visible", more obvious(can't find the right word here really).

So if the Elohim are treading a difficult path, what path do they take?

I believe they are having difficulties regarding TC. He is by himself a walking paradox. He doesn't fit into their visions, not the way they expects...


kasten

[Dragonlily]

a place on the Earth where the Earthpower was more "visible", more obvious(can't find the right word here really).

"more strongly manifested"?

You make a good point.

Spoiler

An Elohim becoming part of the SoL would seem to be an ultimate violation of their wurd of non-interference.

[caamora]

And yet, they are bound by the law just like anything else. It seems only fitting that

Spoiler

Since TC cannot make a new Staff that one of them becomes the new SoL because they are the law - aren't they?

[Seafoam Understone]

Yes but it does begin to make sense that one of "them" had to be involved in

Spoiler

the making of the SOL because

another one of "them" Vain, being a physical being perfect structure, was the opposite of the Elohim (law) non-structure.
The

Spoiler

new SOL had no runes or carvings because of vain's perfect body needed none for his part and Findal's Earthpower (which was probably represented by the runes in the first SOL would be sufficent to wield...

Yes, Findal probably dreaded his part because he would've ended up like the Collosus of the Fall.

[Durris]

Rereading this chapter (sorry my participation has been so sporadic--I'm in the middle of an editorial fertile sun!) something captured my attention:

This conflagration was like no other she had ever witnessed. It did not come from [Covenant's] ring, from his half-fist pounding at his temple. It sprang straight from his forehead as if his brain had erupted in argence.

I'd read right past this the first two times; but it is an elegant and emphatic visual demonstration of how the wild magic doesn't inhere in the ring itself but in Covenant's being.

Setting aside all the "future-oriented" aspects of the Elohim's silencing for a moment, the description of its effects seems almost as though they are denying that TC is the white gold (jealous or too threatened by his power?) and reducing him forcibly to the impotence of his leprosy:

He knelt in a slack posture, resting back on his heels with his arms unconsciously braced on his knees. He seemed unaware of anything. His gaze stared through [Linden] like a blind man's. His mouth hung open as if he had been bereft of every word or wail. His breathing shook slightly, painfully. The muscles of his chest ached in Linden's sight as if they had been torn on the rack of Linden's opening. [An echo of the wound inflicted during his summoning?]
But when she reached out her hand to him, he croaked like a parched and damaged raven, "Don't touch me."
The words were clear. They echoed the old warning of his leprosy for all the Elohim to hear. But in his eyes the light of his mind had gone out.

The silence does to his emotional and moral faculties what leprosy has done to his physical nerves, and then some. Though in the First Chronicles "I can't use [the ring]! I'm a leper!" was his credo and was something Foul exploited, in the Second Chronicles Foul's strategy turns on augmenting his power with venom. The Elohim's silence counteracts that, but in a way that seems to do equal despite to Covenant as a person.