Insanity of the Left

[Hashi Lebwohl]

sanest post in this...or frankly, ANY of the political threads in this forum. I agree with you 100%, Hashi. sorry I can't add anything to this, you've said it all for me. thanks.

Flattery will get you nowhere. Flattery with a bribe just might.

Seriously, though, thank you for the compliment. Sometimes I come across as an asshole and sometimes I am an asshole, but there are times when I say something worth reading.

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The technical name of the political party which Hitler joined was "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei", translated as "National Socialist German Workers' Party". The word "socialist" in the title does not mean "socialist" as the term is normally defined. I can put meat, cheese, pickles, lettuce, tomato slices, and mustard in between two slices of bread and call it "a Big Mac" but every knows that what I have is not a Big Mac. Words may be misused.

Sarge is correct--Hitler and his followers took whatever that party might have been in the early-to-mid 1920s and turned it into something completely different despite keeping the name. Skyweir is also correct--Hitler hated Socialism so much that he violated his own non-aggression pact when he attacked Russia (the one move which most likely lost him the War, D-Day notwithstanding).

Trump has never had 50% of the support of the American electorate.

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If the Democratic Socialists were truly convinced that the Green New Deal were a viable piece of legislation, then it would be proposed as a bill on the House floor, not a mere resolution which has no legal enforceability. They want it...but they don't really want it.

AOC is going to have to explain to her constituents why Amazon is abandoning its plans to build HQ2 in the NYC area, taking 25,000 jobs, all those lost wages, and all that positive economic impact with it. I *told* Jeff that he should have located it in the DFW Metroplex, but he didn't listen to me. *shrug*

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Nikki Joly, trans activist living in a suburb of Detroit, had his house burned down back in 2017, which led to a lot of local uproar about transphobia as the FBI investigated it as a hate crime. Wait for it--Mr. Joly has recently been arrested as the prime suspect in the arson case for the fire which consumed his house. Yes, that's right--he set the fire himself, which also killed 5 pets. I am not surprised.

[aliantha]

The Green New Deal has a number of moving parts. It's going to require several separate pieces of legislation: one (or more) for Medicare for All, one (or more) for free college tuition, one (or more) for the jobs program and infrastructure improvements, some kind of tax increase to cover the cost, etc., etc. They couldn't possibly cover it all in a single law. Patience, grasshopper.

As for the NYC HQ2 debacle, I saw an interesting article about why the Virginia project hasn't fallen apart the way the NY project did...and of course now I can't find it. Bottom line has to do with the way NY's bid was structured. Basically NY State is required by state law to offer a bunch of the give-backs. It very much made it look like the benefits were all on Amazon's side, with hardly any for the locals.

In contrast, Virginia doesn't have the same incentives codified into state law. Much of the package offered here benefits not Amazon directly, but the community as a whole. We're going to get better access to National Airport, a more sensible Metro stop for the Potomac Yard neighborhood, a new Virginia Tech campus devoted to technological innovation, and so on. That's all going to be done with state money, and it's all going to benefit folks who live here already. (I have some skin in the game; our apartment is in Potomac Yard, just a few blocks from the southern end of the area where Amazon HQ2 is going to set up shop.)

And apologies if I'm repeating myself on this. It feels like I've posted a lot of this before, but it may have been on Facebook.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Patience, grasshopper.

Those pieces will also require that the Democrats control the Senate and the Oval Office, so 2020 at the earliest. Of course, they will also have to pass the SCOTUS hurdle--impossible to tell what may happen there.

Until then, it's just wishful thinking.

[Kizza]

It would seem that any time someone with the will and possibly capacity to explore both sides gets painted as being a spreader of evil for THAT side by the other side.
Gotta love the media.

[TheFallen]

Oh dear TF .. you clearly suffer from what you accuse me of

My point .. clearly reinforced in the Charisma thread is that Trump does not have the support of the majority, he didnt even have the majority of the popular vote.

Meaning ... to be extremely clear for you ... Trump does not have more than half of the US population, so the American electorate ... per the majority are not in Trumps corner.

Perhaps if YOU read what is in front of you and stop twisting it to suit your predetermined bias ... you might actually understand what others are saying.

Two easily auditable facts:

1. Trump won in 2016.

2. You repeatedly said in the Charisma thread that at least half of Americans supported Trump. Here again are your words:-

Trumps sound bytes resonated with half the US population and not with the other half.

Trump said things that, that half that voted for him, WANTED to hear. Anti migration, isolationism, punching anti Trump protesters at Trump rallies, cutting social welfare, reversing MedicAid, America first, etc

Half the population support a sexist pussy grabbing wealthy self absorbed narcissisti in the person of Trump .. a loose cannon, liability and global joke than any other candidate.

That says more about at least 50 percent of Americans than it does, to be fair, about Trump ...

Your statements are unequivocally clear, I'd say. I'm the one reading here and quoting here, instead of backtracking or attempting revisionism. I'm not putting words into anyone's mouth.

Now, given the collegiate electoral system long in place in the US, I'll freely concede that Trump got elected to the White House without winning a per capita majority (46.1% as against Hillary's 48. 2% - a nigh on 3 million difference).

But Trump won. And that's the way the US system has long worked. I'm not saying it's necessarily the best system, but it's the system that's in place, everyone knows that and everyone knew that in advance of 2016. And this is not an unusual occurrence in any country that does not have strict proportional representation when it comes to elections.

I keep saying that I'd simply LOVE to see a credible and electable opposition to Trump. But for that to happen - and given the US collegiate system in place - the Dems need to get more centrist, not more progressive. The fact that Trump won to my mind at least in part strongly suggests that enough of the US electorate is - or at least was - more right-leaning than the Dems reckoned. Ergo heading post-event leftwards - which I strongly believe the Dems to have done over the last 3 years - is the exact opposite of what needs to be done.

Or to come at it from another angle...

Vraith maintained upthread that the right has become more right. I agree with him - though I think that's been a more longterm change (say over 30+ years). But I also believe that the Left has become more left over a much shorter period (3 years).

It's very easily arguable that Trump represents a shift to the right for the Pubs. However, it makes absolutely no sense for the Dems to lambast Trump for being a right wing extremist of some sort and then as a result to decide to head in the exact opposite direction and become more left wing extremist, when it was Trump's brand of "rightism" that had sufficient greater appeal - given the collegiate system in place - to get him into office.

Trump's rightism did not win an overall majority of the popular vote. Fact. However, it struck enough of a chord with enough voters to get him the presidency. Also fact.

Therefore, the most simplistic of logic determines that Dem tactics/narrative/messaging/manifesto/policies for 2020 need to be formulated, bearing that indisputable fact very firmly in mind.

[Skyweir]

You could be right TF ... Perhaps someone should pass that insight along to the DNP.

Though Sanders had a great following in 2016 .. and he is definitely not centrist.

Now if Sanders had the opportunity to run against Trump I wonder what the outcome may have been? A hung parliament or the US equivalent... or a democratic majority... or a stronger win for Trump?

I cant help but think that bipartisan centrism offers the electorate little real choice. Some choice, for sure ... but there becomes less to distinguish left from right .. and therefore harder to value left or right.

I think though that Trumps appeal was his difference .. from the well schooled bureaucrat model of candidate. His difference helped him stand apart.

And good for him cos he leveraged that appeal and played it to his advantage as ... any savvy candidate would.

I think his downfall is that he plays to the populist element ... but thats a strategic play on his part.

So a DNP that offers centrism might have as little appeal as Clinton presented the US electorate.

[TheFallen]

I agree that Trump's victory 3 years ago hinged on multiple factors. I also take the point about Progressive Bernie seemingly having plenty of popular support, before Hillary blatantly bent the DNP rules beyond screaming point to win the nomination.

Having said all that, to me it does not follow that, just because someone who it could be argued (albeit somewhat exaggeratedly) is an extremist nutjob wins the US presidency, it therefore follows that the other side simply has to come up with its own diametrically opposed narrative of extremist nutjobbery.

That way lies madness - and yet that's the way I'm seeing things already heading.

[Skyweir]

I agree and can see your point.

I dont suggest it has to be that way ... ie the nutjobbery way.

But tbh its clearly a matter of perspective.. I see nutjobbery in some pollies that others see as awesomeness incarnate.

And visa versa.

Maybe a better analysis is looking at what kind of world youd like to live in ... the society you want to be part of .. what that would look like, what it would include and exclude.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 3-trillion

$51-93 trillion over 10 years, what's not to love?

[Ur Dead]

I think ocasio-cortez idea is great and she should pay for it out of her own pocket.

[lucimay]

sanest post in this...or frankly, ANY of the political threads in this forum. I agree with you 100%, Hashi. sorry I can't add anything to this, you've said it all for me. thanks.

Flattery will get you nowhere. Flattery with a bribe just might.

Seriously, though, thank you for the compliment. Sometimes I come across as an asshole and sometimes I am an asshole, but there are times when I say something worth reading.

hahahaha!! you're welcome. and...regarding the ahole section...ME TOO! hahaha!

The technical name of the political party which Hitler joined was "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei", translated as "National Socialist German Workers' Party". The word "socialist" in the title does not mean "socialist" as the term is normally defined. I can put meat, cheese, pickles, lettuce, tomato slices, and mustard in between two slices of bread and call it "a Big Mac" but every knows that what I have is not a Big Mac. Words may be misused.

Sarge is correct--Hitler and his followers took whatever that party might have been in the early-to-mid 1920s and turned it into something completely different despite keeping the name. Skyweir is also correct--Hitler hated Socialism so much that he violated his own non-aggression pact when he attacked Russia (the one move which most likely lost him the War, D-Day notwithstanding).

Trump has never had 50% of the support of the American electorate.

also thanks for the clarification on these points. I get very frustrated at the incorrect usage of the words "socialism" and "socialist", or...the misuse of it, in the media AND in political discussions whether here or on fb or wherever. I love the Big Mac metaphor!! brilliant!

[Vraith]

So what?



Same thing happened on both sides. I would say that this is because we had two wildly unpopular, controversial candidates, but NPR says that this isn't out of the ordinary, so maybe it has nothing to do with that, and more to do with the dynamics of primary vs general election voter actions.

The second may be true.

But the So What is that I was explicitly commenting on the issue of the Left/Far-Left, and its impact. And I said, and still say, [and the details in that NPR support] Those voters are NOT left/far-left.

RR, I kinda agree with your 1---coulda been better candidate [but the even shittier one won...so...]
Totally agree with 2. Huge factor.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 3-trillion

$51-93 trillion over 10 years, what's not to love?

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Well. You really told me.

[Zarathustra]

V, if you think that Bloomberg's numbers are inaccurate, perhaps you can give us yours? How much do you think that free college, free healthcare, guaranteed income for people not working, replacing every internal combustion engine, building recharge stations for electric cars across the entire country, building enough solar and wind power stations to completely replace all fossil fuels, building enough high speed rail to replace all airplane travel, and revamping every single home and building in the US to make them energy efficient will cost?

[Vraith]

V, if you think that Bloomberg's numbers are inaccurate,

Well, obviously, they aren't Bloomberg's. But you can get to the actual thing from there...
And then read it.
And then look at what they did, how, assumptions the made or invented. Think about it for a minute.

An easy one for free:
GND healthcare estimate 36 trillion.
Why is that even included, since that's at LEAST 8 Trillion less than will be spent if we don't change it. [[and that's if it only matches normal inflation---in fact, healthcare has been WAY faster---the real savings are low-balled at 15 trillion.]]

Hint on another...
There are nearly 20 MILLION vacant homes in the country.

Those not even the biggest problems with the thing.

Only totally bad thing in GND, that I think can't/won't work no matter what/how modified: high-speed rail on a large scale. We'll have short-haul electric aircraft faster, cheaper, and more acceptable to the average American. [[and/or safe, ultra-fast, self-driving lanes on highways]]

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I get very frustrated at the incorrect usage of the words "socialism" and "socialist", or...the misuse of it, in the media AND in political discussions whether here or on fb or wherever.

The vast majority of people no longer know what some of these words mean any more: socialist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so on. They have been watered down or misused as weak attempts at insulting someone so often, especially on social media, that they have lost all meaning. Even some of the people who self-identify as "socialist" or "Democratic socialist" aren't really socialists, accoriding the the traditional definition.

Vraith--if is so easy then why didn't you answer the question?

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

And some of us think for ourselves and don't concern ourselves with labels.

People who self-identify as "democrat socialists" understand neither democracy nor socialism. People who self-identify as "progressive" are clearly not using language correctly, as there's nothing remotely progressive about assuming that you know better than everyone and those who disagree with you are evil and should be silenced.

[Avatar]

Pretty much agree. Those terms are all so misused, they don't actually mean anything any more other than whatever the person using them's agenda insists they mean.

--A

[Vraith]

Vraith--if is so easy then why didn't you answer the question?

Well, Hashi:
A} Not my job.
B} Think of it as a P/NP situation. Fully calculating, documenting, proving a particular answer/solution would take for goddamn ever. However, checking someone ELSE's solutions [and noticing all the "mistakes"] in it is easy...and particularly easy when they're:
---------1} Doing grade-school multiplication tables, not PhD [or even high-----------------school] mathematics.
---------2} It contains all the same "mistakes" as a whole range of other similar -------------arguments/proofs in a whole field of issues.
C} Got my ways, got my reasons.
D} Like crossing the road, cuz stapled to a chicken.

[Gaius Octavius]

Finland basic income trial was complete failure at increasing productivity.