What will it take to change attitudes towards abortion?

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Obi-Wan Nihilo
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Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

Skyweir wrote:Agreed Sarge.

Apologies Nihilo .. now that you and Nano have identical Avs and Sig blocks I didnt spot the different Nic.

But yes I know it is something you would condone and applaud.

To be clear ... it is as Sarge says. Its unpleasant and I understand that IS its purpose .. but it is no more courageous than me posting pics of horrendously battered living and murdered children who are victims of domestic violence... and forced to such lives by parents or guardians that dont give a shit about them.

Is that a better or worse outcome for a child?

There are parents who should absolutely never ever have had children, that dont want them, neglect them, beat them, murder them ... is LIFE better for a child in such circumstances.. to some no more than a delayed death.

I read just yesterday of a mother who dismembered her BABY and burned its remains and put them in her bag under the house so .. she hoped theyd never be found.

I read last week of a man who RAPED a 9 month old baby, choked it to death because it cried. There are thousands of cases of child neglect and abuse ... is LIFE better for them in such circumstances.

Its naive and narrow minded to assume LIFE is preferable extinguished cruelly after birth .. where such parents could avoid such ends by ideally birth control in whatever form that is taken.

There are some people who are not FIT to parent. Such should never imo but I dont control that.

I wanted my children, the four I lost to miscarriage and still birth ... NATURES abortion ... and the three that survived child birth . and are now adults. For me they are my religion.

I personally have never had to consider abortion, for health reasons or any other reason. Not all are made the same way, lovely humans alike have no desire to parent. Be that as it may.

Women are not just hosts or incubators .. some women for good reason require a pregnancy terminated.

And despite that .. abortion rates are falling and in decline.

I know two women who had abortions, I dont know why .. and never asked. I know it was one of the most difficult decisions of their lives. I am not here to judge them or anyone .. I havent walked in their shoes not know their minds. And shit like this stunt for shock value is horrendous for such.

There is a spectrum of reasons that a woman may be brought to the point where they may need to consider terminating a pregnancy.

Birth control per abortion is occurring less and less these days ... and THAT is as it should be ... prevention is better than the cure.

But there remain valid reasons a woman may require a termination and Nano of all people should know that.

Not cool .. not cool at all 😔
I have to say, especially in view of that picture, that presenting abortion as a humane alternative to bad parenting, without so much as considering the idea of adoption, is an argument I consider more than a little bit strange.

I'm no expert on the subject, but my impression is that a very few cases of medically necessary late term abortions are being used to justify in practice several orders of magnitude more late term elective abortions that could more safely be carried to term, delivered alive, and adopted out if unwanted, to the probable benefit of everyone concerned including the mother, who risks more both physically and psychologically in most all cases by having an abortion than by not having an abortion. Forcibly tearing a developed baby out of the womb carries a great many more risks than pro choice advocates want advertised.
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Post by Ur Dead »

I would ask a mod to remove the picture.
I am against abortions as a means of birth control
I find the pic in bad taste and unnecessary.
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Post by Skyweir »

Thats a fair point .. but creates the problem of forcing a woman to carry and deliver a child.

I take your point on adoption as another choice available to those who might consider it an option.

But it sounds like youre implying that abortions are being performed without valid reason or justification. To you there is a difference between a health necessitated abortion and some other grounds???

Isnt it a question of morality then? If one termination is more palatable than the other, what is the distinction?
Last edited by Skyweir on Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Vraith »

Zarathustra wrote:Just a clump of cells, right? Just part of the woman's body. It's weird that part of her body looks like another body. It even has a face :? No part of my body has a face except for my face.
Bet it's a fucking fake.

But you are too.

I could have SWORN you said it's not fair to hope/want/make people suffer...but here you are thinking it's just fine.
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I'm no expert on the subject, but my impression is that a very few cases of medically necessary late term abortions are being used to justify in practice several orders of magnitude more late term elective abortions that could more safely be carried to term, delivered alive, and adopted out if unwanted,

Yea, you are no expert. Not even talented amateur, cuz you haven't even tried to check your "impression."
Fact: these almost never happen.
Fact: what IS known says, not safe, not healthy, and the reason they happen late is cuz fuckheads try as much as they can to FORCE them to be late.
Besides:
Simple math...it is HIGHLY LIKELY that your "impression" of "several orders of magnitude" is ridiculous [[not MY OPINION of ridiculous, simple math version. Several orders is AT LEAST 1000 times as many. But only 6K ish happen TOTAL per year, AND most of the country lives in places where those can ONLY happen for medical/danger reasons.]]
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Post by SoulBiter »

Oh puhleasseee Vraith. You are no F' n expert either so quit acting like you have some kind of higher knowledge in this.

Your opinion is no more valid than FakeCailish or Z and in fact might be less in terms of knowledge and experience.
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Post by Rawedge Rim »

Skyweir wrote:Thats a fair point .. but creates the problem of forcing a woman to carry and deliver a child.

I take your point on adoption as another choice available to those who might consider it an option.

But it sounds like youre implying that abortions are being performed without valid reason or justification. To you there is a difference between a health necessitated abortion and some other grounds.

Isnt it a question of morality the ? If one termination is more palatable than the other, what is the distinction?
Frankly, I believe, and I'm fairly sure that the statistics would back me up, that 99% of all abortions being performed are unnecessary from a medical stand point, that in fact they are being performed as an after the fact birth control.

Change my mind :twisted:
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Post by Vraith »

SoulBiter wrote:Oh puhleasseee Vraith. You are no F' n expert either so quit acting like you have some kind of higher knowledge in this.

Your opinion is no more valid than FakeCailish or Z and in fact might be less in terms of knowledge and experience.
OH, PUUUHHHHLLLLLEEEAAAASE, SB. You are wrong. The fucking numbers exist, it's not even fucking hard. It doesn't TAKE a fucking expert. I fucking looked them up. You fucking didn't. He can't have a fucking "impression" anyone should care about unless he LOOKED at something RELEVANT to fucking impress.

what is it Z says?
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Post by lucimay »

so much for the quiet, intelligent, measured discussions we were *almost* having. :cry:
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Post by Skyweir »

First the incidence of 2nd trimester abortions is less than has been suggested.
Percentage of 2015 Reported Abortions by Weeks of Gestation* (CDC):
≤6 wks 7 wks 8 wks 9 wks 10 wks 11 wks 12 wks
34.2% 17.8% 13.3% 8.9% 5.6% 4.7% 3.5%

13 wks 14-15 wks 16-17 wks 18-20 wks ≥21 wks
2.8% 3.5%. 2.1% 2.0% 1.3%
Abortion rates are most certainly in decline.

The reasons for abortion range from as follows
-rape
-incest
-mother has health problems
-fetal health problems
-unready for responsibility
-is too immature or young to have child
-woman's parents want her to have abortion
-has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood
-husband or partner wants her to have abortion
-has all the children she wanted or all children are grown
-can't afford baby now
-concerned about how having baby would change her life
-doesn't want others to know she had relations or is pregnant
-other

There may be other reasons not covered off here.

Abortion rates are far higher than I anticipated tbh. Nevertheless they are sought for a range of reasons that, though some not ideal .. if there IS an ideal .. Im not in their shoes and cant fault.

Maybe greater support could be given particularly to younger immature clients of abortion, so they arent overwhelmed by the prospect of single parenthood, that greater education and support is provided surrounding adoptions... but I still can not condone forcing a women or a child to carry a pregnancy to term and deliver it.

Yes, I used the term .. it .. because it is convincingly not a person, depending where the foetus is along the pregnancy spectrum.

Id like to think that an abortion is a last ditch option motivated by need as opposed to want .. but the CDC statistics dont bear that out.

I absolutely oppose the practice of shaming women and children for choosing abortion .. I think there is sufficient grief and remorse and guilt involved in the loss of any pregnancy .. and such tactics just exacerbate grief, remorse and guilt. To my mind it serves no purpose.

Abortion IS NOT infanticide and its manipulative and disingenuous of pro life groups to suggest it is.

I think we will continue to see a decline in abortions and we can thank sex education and alternative and effective birth control measures for that. But some reasons will never be mitigated by education or birth control usage and that is in cases of rape, incest, physical and mental wellbeing of the woman, or physical health of the foetus.

In such scenarios abortions will absolutely remain relevant.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

The photo of the aborted foetus shouldn't be that shocking, to be honest. I've seen much, much worse. I wouldn't be at all disturbed if you posted autopsy photos (although it's my understanding that taking such photos is illegal, at least here in the US).

As for the photo itself and your visceral reaction to the idea of abortion 'being awful,' that is an interesting observation. How do you reconcile this abhorrence of abortion itself with the belief in a woman's right to choose to have an abortion or not? For the sake of argument, let's leave aside extreme scenarios such as medically necessary abortion to prevent the death of the mother, rape, etc.

If one believes abortion to be immoral (not necessarily saying that you believe it's immoral per se, but I have seen people state this) while simultaneously being pro-choice, how do you reconcile these contradicting views? Believing something to be ethically unconscionable, how do you believe in the right of someone to choose to do something unethical without consequences?

After all, hardly anyone would believe in a doctor's right to choose to deny healthcare in an emergency situation, a person's right to choose to commit murder or rape, etc. This does strike me as a bit strange.

When it's not so strange is a person who is pro-choice, and they react in a way that celebrates an abortion when a woman chooses to have one.... like NY Democrats lighting up the legislature in pink to celebrate a woman's right to choose after voting for pro-late term abortion legislation (which conservatives have said is pro-infanticide).

So in the end it seems to me that people would be happy that I posted that picture because it represents a woman's right to choose. That photo would be something to be proud of rather than feeling disgusted by.



https://shoutyourabortion.com
Last edited by Gaius Octavius on Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Ur Dead wrote:I would ask a mod to remove the picture.
I am against abortions as a means of birth control
I find the pic in bad taste and unnecessary.
Done.

Folks....this shit is getting out of hand--stop with the Cail nonsense and don't post pictures like that again or *I* will start recommending people for bans. That party is over and I am shutting it down--if you are not actually Cail then change your profile name and picture to something else. If you *must* show support for Cail then put his profile picture in your signature and say something about it there. If I have to become "the bad guy" about then I will and, I promise you, I won't lose a wink of sleep over it. Time to move on.

Other than the one or two times I have had to remove a suspicious url a random bot has placed here, this marks the first time that I can recall when I have actually edited someone's post. Do not make me do that again.

I have a steady job again so I am going to be here much more regularly now.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

Kids meet: Abortion activist explaining why she had abortion and why she's proud of it.

I couldn't find the original video, so bear with me. It seems it was pulled because of bad optics or whatever.

Anyway, one part of the interview was really interesting. It went something like this:

Little girl: Did you use a condom?
Woman: *smiling proudly* No, I didn't.
Little girl: Why?
Woman: Do you know those times when it isn't really convenient to do something?
Little girl: Yes.
Woman: It was one of those times. It wasn't convenient to use the condom. I got pregnant, then I had an abortion.
Little girl and her friend: Yeah, that makes sense...
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

@Hashi: If you have a problem with my screen name and signature block, you're free to change it.

It takes me a long time to just change a profile picture, so no, I am not wasting an hour trying to change it back because of this site's poor coding.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

Also, I stand by my use of the photo. There was nothing particularly inappropriate with it, but I will respect your decision to remove it.

People are too sheltered. That photo was in fact very tame.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Cailothnir wrote:@Hashi: If you have a problem with my screen name and signature block, you're free to change it.

It takes me a long time to just change a profile picture, so no, I am not wasting an hour trying to change it back because of this site's poor coding.
I am looking into whether or not I have that capability--it isn't a question I have ever had to ask before.

But enought of that. Take abortion discussions back to the abortion thread--I will move those posts over there in a little bit.

update: posts moved.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Vraith wrote:
SoulBiter wrote:Oh puhleasseee Vraith. You are no F' n expert either so quit acting like you have some kind of higher knowledge in this.

Your opinion is no more valid than FakeCailish or Z and in fact might be less in terms of knowledge and experience.
OH, PUUUHHHHLLLLLEEEAAAASE, SB. You are wrong. The fucking numbers exist, it's not even fucking hard. It doesn't TAKE a fucking expert. I fucking looked them up. You fucking didn't. He can't have a fucking "impression" anyone should care about unless he LOOKED at something RELEVANT to fucking impress.

what is it Z says?
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Then since you took the time to do so, you should post the information and debate the numbers and the information rather than continuing to attack the poster which lately has become your MO. This is exactly the behavior that we were all told was unacceptable.
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Post by Ur Dead »

Cailothnir wrote:Also, I stand by my use of the photo. There was nothing particularly inappropriate with it, but I will respect your decision to remove it.

People are too sheltered. That photo was in fact very tame.
Cailothnir.
I have seen pictures of:
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The idea of debate set not in pictures but the intent and meaning of each poster.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Vraith wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:Just a clump of cells, right? Just part of the woman's body. It's weird that part of her body looks like another body. It even has a face :? No part of my body has a face except for my face.
Bet it's a fucking fake.

But you are too.

I could have SWORN you said it's not fair to hope/want/make people suffer...but here you are thinking it's just fine.
I didn't offer an opinion on posting the picture, so I'm not sure how you can conclude that I thought it was "just fine." Nor did I realize that pictures cause suffering. If by "suffering" you meant that we'll have to see pictures of Trump being President and not in jail, then I take back my criticism. :lol:

Clearly, I was pointing out the irony of the position of the Left that believes an unborn baby is 'just a clump of cells' or 'just part of the woman's body.' When we are confronted by the truth in such a graphic way, it shocks us out of our euphemisms.

The true suffering is experienced by the unborn babies who have to go through being aborted. They can feel pain, you know. I bet being dismembered isn't pleasant.

There is no need to make this so personal. No need to call me a "fucking fake" when all I was doing was pointing out the disingenuous nature of the other side's arguments. It would have been sufficient to point out a discrepancy in my arguments, if that was your intention. For instance: I think it's fucking hypocritical to have jumped on the "ban Cail bandwagon" when you have no problem hurling personal insults yourself. Fuck you running, Vraith.
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Post by Skyweir »

First, to be clear, Nano, the only reason I am responding to this post is because you seem to have misconstrued my intentions and response to your original post.
Cailothnir wrote:The photo of the aborted foetus shouldn't be that shocking, to be honest. I've seen much, much worse. I wouldn't be at all disturbed if you posted autopsy photos (although it's my understanding that taking such photos is illegal, at least here in the US).

As for the photo itself and your visceral reaction to the idea of abortion 'being awful,' that is an interesting observation. How do you reconcile this abhorrence of abortion itself with the belief in a woman's right to choose to have an abortion or not? For the sake of argument, let's leave aside extreme scenarios such as medically necessary abortion to prevent the death of the mother, rape, etc.

If one believes abortion to be immoral (not necessarily saying that you believe it's immoral per se, but I have seen people state this) while simultaneously being pro-choice, how do you reconcile these contradicting views? Believing something to be ethically unconscionable, how do you believe in the right of someone to choose to do something unethical without consequences?

After all, hardly anyone would believe in a doctor's right to choose to deny healthcare in an emergency situation, a person's right to choose to commit murder or rape, etc. This does strike me as a bit strange.

When it's not so strange is a person who is pro-choice, and they react in a way that celebrates an abortion when a woman chooses to have one.... like NY Democrats lighting up the legislature in pink to celebrate a woman's right to choose after voting for pro-late term abortion legislation (which conservatives have said is pro-infanticide).

So in the end it seems to me that people would be happy that I posted that picture because it represents a woman's right to choose. That photo would be something to be proud of rather than feeling disgusted by.

https://shoutyourabortion.com
Well so much here .. where to start? _

1. Seen much worse Nano. I do not doubt it in your line of work. And you well know, as the intelligent human that you are, that you can access disturbing pics everywhere, almost entirely legal sources to boot. But Im not buying into the disgusting pic-off.

2. You are taking a deliberate and different spin to my reaction to your pic. I dont need to post graphic content to prove murder is a crime, or that the battered and bruised unrecognisable human body of a child to prove to you domestic violence and the abuse of children is a crime. Right? Cos if you arent a few snags short of a BarB .. you get that dont you?

You KNOW very little about your fellow Watchers Nano. We are a community yet we are also, some in particular, very private human beings. I dont know in truth if you are male or female, and nor do I know if you have had an abortion .. if you are a woman. Nor do you. My disgust was centred on the appropriateness of such a stunt ... and it absolutely was a stunt. That there may be someone here who have had to make that choice, for whatever reason .. I cant imagine the pain a stunt like that would cause.

I know the pain of loss, nature did that. To those who believe in god .. god did that. My body did that. Miscarriage and still birth did that... well amniotic fluid embolus did the last.

That grief is real, THAT is visceral Nano. So is it ok that nature, god kills "babies"?

Side note the god of the Old Testament specifically commands the killing of babies and children .. how is THAT reconcilable with problifers and the problife argument?

How is one termination acceptable and another not ... PARTICULARLY in a world that IS over populated. Of course nature has its ways of thinning herds, does it not?

3. Im simply going to address the rest in sum and ask you some questions Nano.

First, the problem with absolutism is that theres never a middle position. One from that perspective must be either in one camp or the only other camp ... pro life or pro choice.

Ok it's fair to remove the less used reasons for abortion, rape, incest, health etc ONLY because they are NOT the predominant reasons people still use today for terminating a pregnancy. So Ill pay that, despite on ethical grounds you narrow the scope and possibility for valid individual considerations. But ok, be that as it is.

So then we are left with, oh Im 14yo and pregnant, or oh Im 24yo and Im pregnant, or whatever.

On the face of it, it seems and in some cases it may be a gratuitous non necessity and they should suck it up and own the consequences of their actions. Or is it?

There are within those who seek abortion even for ... arguably birth control purposes, a myriad of issues an individual might be faced with, no job, partners shot through, homelessness, family expectations, assumed stigma, unready, immature .. particularly in the case of minors getting pregnant, untenable living conditions, abusive parents, abusive partners, a partner insists on abortion ... and so on and so on.

Its very easy to take a blanket stand but in order to justify that stand you HAVE to LIMIT their individual reality and circumstances to SELFISHNESS. Not doing so will leave you obfuscated, incapable of RECONCILING another persons REALITY with your POSITION.

This to me is a key point. I dont know anothers life, circumstances, thinking, capability, fitness etc. And I personally dont need to judge them or their circumstances.

You however, can only ASSUME the condition of another persons life, their circumstances, their thinking, their capability or their fitness, or you can simply dismissing their concerns. their circumstances etc as irrelevant. But in truth they are only irrelevant to you.

They remain relevant to the individual.

That may change however, with education, support, encouragement and of course their own financial, emotional, intellectual wellbeing.

So the question that follows, how do you reconcile your rigid pro life position with

A. miscarriage
B. stillbirths
C. incidents of child abuse
D. health conditions
E. avoidable diseases
F. actual infanticide
G. suicide
H. domestic violence
I. child abuse
J. lack of the bare necessities of life 🐒

Finally, many pro lifers assert that life is "a right" .. to some "a god given right".

Its not.

A right is only a right if it can be granted. And if you weigh in to the religious position, IF life is a god given RIGHT, why are so many without it? Why are children killed, why do miscarriages happen? Why does god order death?

Life is NOT a right, its a privilege accorded the fortuitous, the survivors. And it comes with no guarantees, at all.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

Good points, Skyweir. Let me provide a brief rebuttal.

Concerning your bullet point scenarios provided above, most of those situations can be solved by providing increased access to healthcare for pregnant women in addition to providing mental health services. Abortion need not be a solution unless medically necessary, and in situations where the mother does not want the child, there is always adoption. A mother can also use so-called baby 'drop boxes' to remain anonymous.

There are many families that would love to have children but are unable to have their own because of fertility problems. Adoption benefits them, too.

This is how I resolve these scenarios with my 'rigid pro-life position.'

Also, keep in mind that I am not religious. I do not believe in God or gods. Therefore, religious pro-life arguments are meaningless to me, and I do agree with you in principle that there is no such thing as a 'God-given right to life.' However, I do believe in a societal construct of 'natural rights' such as freedom of speech, right to life, etc. as defined in the Bill of Rights.
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