Estie (Spoilers possible)
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Estie (Spoilers possible)
I have drafted and abandoned this post for some days.
Having finished The War Within almost two weeks ago, I am itching to discuss. While many things have changed since the end of Seventh Decimate, Estie seems like an obvious topic to start discussion of this book.
Feel free to create more topics!
Mod note: Trying to strike a balance between discussion and circumspection, I encourage the former...but may "spoiler" some disclosures...although my experience of the dedicated SRD readers on the Watch is that y'all know where that line is...in fiction discussion, if not always in discussion of real-world events.
Yes, absolutely, MeToo. I am what I am...
Having finished The War Within almost two weeks ago, I am itching to discuss. While many things have changed since the end of Seventh Decimate, Estie seems like an obvious topic to start discussion of this book.
Feel free to create more topics!
Mod note: Trying to strike a balance between discussion and circumspection, I encourage the former...but may "spoiler" some disclosures...although my experience of the dedicated SRD readers on the Watch is that y'all know where that line is...in fiction discussion, if not always in discussion of real-world events.
Yes, absolutely, MeToo. I am what I am...
Love prevails.
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon
Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon
Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
- Hunchback Jack
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I think the book really picked up when Donaldson focused on Estie. She could have so easily been a cliched character, but Donaldson gave her nuances and complexities that elevated her above the stereotype.
Obviously, there's a key matter that needs to be resolved with her in the third book. It will be interesting to see how Donaldson resolves it - along with everything else that needs to be done.
Obviously, there's a key matter that needs to be resolved with her in the third book. It will be interesting to see how Donaldson resolves it - along with everything else that needs to be done.
I'd say Etsie is the center of TWW..the author fills out all the characters in the book but he really fills the Estie character out..perhaps into the 5 and 6th dimensions..He even kinda admits it the dialogue or two between her and Bifalt..you have changed ..and I have not...all bringing us to her choice at end...woowee..So the speculation is..
SPOILER ALERT
what is the nature of that she seeks to identify..??
Did the author give us clues thru-out this book? perhaps..One clue may be early on..the author tells us when she realizes her emotions for Bifallt are actually " desires",,,xxxx would come later...
I get the sense that in classic Donaldson style the climax of the next book and perhaps the whole tale, has a lot to do with Estie being who she is and Bifalt surpassing himself ..falling in love with the evolved Estie...??
SPOILER ALERT
what is the nature of that she seeks to identify..??
Did the author give us clues thru-out this book? perhaps..One clue may be early on..the author tells us when she realizes her emotions for Bifallt are actually " desires",,,xxxx would come later...
I get the sense that in classic Donaldson style the climax of the next book and perhaps the whole tale, has a lot to do with Estie being who she is and Bifalt surpassing himself ..falling in love with the evolved Estie...??
"As usual,they had nothing to do." TWW
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What I fear about Estie is this: those who worship the god talked at length about how sorcerous power makes one arrogant and callous. And now Estie is going to acquire sorcerous power. I think this is a coincidence not. They all seemed to have dried up and left dodge at about exactly the same time Estie was given knowledge of her power, a bread crumb anyone could guess would be followed to the library. I don't know what this means, but it all seems interconnected.
.
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Estie's unrevealed 'gift' will be a key reveal in the 3rd book for sure.wayfriend wrote:What I fear about Estie is this: those who worship the god talked at length about how sorcerous power makes one arrogant and callous. And now Estie is going to acquire sorcerous power. I think this is a coincidence not. They all seemed to have dried up and left dodge at about exactly the same time Estie was given knowledge of her power, a bread crumb anyone could guess would be followed to the library. I don't know what this means, but it all seems interconnected.
Its a talent that could cut either way; nevermind what the Church said about those with sorcerous powers, look no further than the impact such a preoccupation with one's talent had on her own Father for signs and wonders.
As you say; for Estie, all roads lead to the Repository.
How long have they known of and planned to integrate the fact of her gift?
I think that Donaldson hints throughout the 2nd book that the Magisters - while a largely complacent and haughty lot - are nonetheless no better equipped to make sense of their world than anyone else - Bifalt's contention that they are to be deplored due to their capacity to inflict hurt while remaining at a safe distance contradicts his own easy sanctioning of rifles and cannons (sophistry, Covenant might say) - Estie reflects upon this early in the book, not seeing the other side of the coin in a very Bifalt-way..
Estie's gift remains a mystery. That even the Magisters of the Library hadn't mentioned her..mite be a clue. Mystery, maybe that is her gift,,mystify, send folks into an unknown..where their own fears or Love ruins them or saves them respectively.
I keep wanting to see her as a saving force against the Library's enemies. Perhaps that is a mistake. Maybe her talent is to get other folks to be all that they can be..plenty of clues pointing in that direction...and it may have a pay off in the sack with her husband..Did I say that?
I keep wanting to see her as a saving force against the Library's enemies. Perhaps that is a mistake. Maybe her talent is to get other folks to be all that they can be..plenty of clues pointing in that direction...and it may have a pay off in the sack with her husband..Did I say that?
"As usual,they had nothing to do." TWW
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I think that the Magisters at the Library already know what Estie's power is. When the time was right, they sent someone tantalize her into coming to them.
The fact that they waited until the last minute means that they fear her power. They want to control her by circumstances so that she won't act independently.
They even may have arranged the whole Beleger/Amika alliance so as to keep her in check under Bifalt - a sorcery hater - until then.
The fact that they waited until the last minute means that they fear her power. They want to control her by circumstances so that she won't act independently.
They even may have arranged the whole Beleger/Amika alliance so as to keep her in check under Bifalt - a sorcery hater - until then.
.
Thats interesting Way..Her slumbering "gift" seems to be prejudicing a lot of folks,,most surprising the devotees. No matter, the implication is that her gift will be of major consequences or impact.
Yet , even if the Magisters didn't know her "condition" they know now, due to M Facile's communication abilities. Sure,the right thing to do for Estie is go to the Pros for identifying,guidance and nurturing her gift if thats what she chooses. What an internal contest she mite have ..if it was made plain her gift could save the Library and having to stave off the Arrogance of being the Heroine..Yes,Her independence mite be crucial to the whole deal.
OH! Maybe she has the gift of The Squirrel..of Brite Shiny Things..once mastered can distract a new at port sailor from a house of ill repute, a farmer from his soybeans, a soldier from his mission..
Yet , even if the Magisters didn't know her "condition" they know now, due to M Facile's communication abilities. Sure,the right thing to do for Estie is go to the Pros for identifying,guidance and nurturing her gift if thats what she chooses. What an internal contest she mite have ..if it was made plain her gift could save the Library and having to stave off the Arrogance of being the Heroine..Yes,Her independence mite be crucial to the whole deal.
OH! Maybe she has the gift of The Squirrel..of Brite Shiny Things..once mastered can distract a new at port sailor from a house of ill repute, a farmer from his soybeans, a soldier from his mission..
"As usual,they had nothing to do." TWW
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That sounds like a Most Holy Devotee of Flesh.
Estie will be so much more!
Still, I agree that SRD has set the expectation that ere the series is through, Estie and Bifalt will definitively consumate their marriage.
Estie will be so much more!
Still, I agree that SRD has set the expectation that ere the series is through, Estie and Bifalt will definitively consumate their marriage.
Love prevails.
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon
Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon
Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
- SleeplessOne
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Thats IT!....Estie is a Time Traveler!! She travels to now,,gets a scanner and a laptop..and goes back and scans all the stuff in the Library and puts it in a Flash Drive.! Then she introduces the enemies of Library to the Internet,,who drop everything and just troll everybody else all day...
"As usual,they had nothing to do." TWW
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Well, that'd be a helluva swerve ...Lurch2 wrote:Thats IT!....Estie is a Time Traveler!! She travels to now,,gets a scanner and a laptop..and goes back and scans all the stuff in the Library and puts it in a Flash Drive.! Then she introduces the enemies of Library to the Internet,,who drop everything and just troll everybody else all day...
But if her power were to encompass the ability to disseminate the library's information to those who sought it, then perhaps the need for warfare would be circumvented.
I think it was Magister Avail (was there also a Travail? sigh) who was able to broadcast his thoughts, and there was also talk of other Magisters who were able to focus in on the spoken words of individuals whom they had trained to 'listen' to - so there is that capacity for Magisters to communicate information across great distances and to whomever they like.
Anyway; I suppose my broader contention is that I reckon Donaldson will address the Last Repository's hoarding of wisdom and knowledge before the series is done, and I suspect it is Estie who will come up with a 'better answer' ..
- TheFallen
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Just finished TWW myself.
I was kind of ho hum with T7D, but TWW is much more engaging in my opinion. Not only does it flesh out exactly what the Magisters of the Last Repository (by the way, does anyone else helplessly think of The Last Suppository when they read that?) have done to Bifalt and how he has been painted into a corner...
...but it also gives us Estie (who's kind of an antimatter Linden Avery from the off - no endlessly agonizing navel-gazing from the former. She doesn't get paralysed by self-recrimination, but just takes it on the chin, steels herself and moves forward). Definitely a character whose story arc and ongoing development has piqued my interest.
My interest is also being held by the murky interplay between the various factions - what is the Magisters' primary objective? Survival of the Library and screw everyone else? What's the deal with the devotees - and why have they seemingly left Belleger and Amika in the lurch when they are needed most? Who are the faceless imminent invaders with a greater level of sorcery than any existing Magister? What's the goal of the priesthood of the great god Rile and where does their theurgy come from? Are the latter two one and the same? (I strongly suspect so).
I hope SRD doesn't do a rush job in an attempt to tie all loose ends together, come Book 3...
Regardless, I await it keenly.
OH PS there is a Travail as well... he's the acolyte (???) who'd been practising being able to hear *everybody* remotely - he's also reportedly near death at the great library, having seemingly been poisoned by a traitor within, plus he's Magister Facile's wrinkly love interest.
I was kind of ho hum with T7D, but TWW is much more engaging in my opinion. Not only does it flesh out exactly what the Magisters of the Last Repository (by the way, does anyone else helplessly think of The Last Suppository when they read that?) have done to Bifalt and how he has been painted into a corner...
...but it also gives us Estie (who's kind of an antimatter Linden Avery from the off - no endlessly agonizing navel-gazing from the former. She doesn't get paralysed by self-recrimination, but just takes it on the chin, steels herself and moves forward). Definitely a character whose story arc and ongoing development has piqued my interest.
My interest is also being held by the murky interplay between the various factions - what is the Magisters' primary objective? Survival of the Library and screw everyone else? What's the deal with the devotees - and why have they seemingly left Belleger and Amika in the lurch when they are needed most? Who are the faceless imminent invaders with a greater level of sorcery than any existing Magister? What's the goal of the priesthood of the great god Rile and where does their theurgy come from? Are the latter two one and the same? (I strongly suspect so).
I hope SRD doesn't do a rush job in an attempt to tie all loose ends together, come Book 3...
Regardless, I await it keenly.
OH PS there is a Travail as well... he's the acolyte (???) who'd been practising being able to hear *everybody* remotely - he's also reportedly near death at the great library, having seemingly been poisoned by a traitor within, plus he's Magister Facile's wrinkly love interest.
Last edited by TheFallen on Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron"
Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them
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Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them
"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
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Fallen..Yes I can see the Preisthood and The Hater Invaders being intertwined..Perhaps the Priesthood Sorcerers actually control the Haters....kinda like the Flesh devotees but in a Spiritual/Faith way..The thing is that we haven't seen anything new from the Haters and Priests..just much more stronger manifestations...Still not sure why Facile ran from them. She could of put an end to their powers seems to me...yea, she didn't want to be discovered but still..another loose end along with the whole of the devotees skippin town. Perhaps it is a matter of Scale that is frightening everybody.
Yea , Donaldson developed the B plots well in TWW and how he brings all of levels of plot to a crescendo I await in wonder.
Yea , Donaldson developed the B plots well in TWW and how he brings all of levels of plot to a crescendo I await in wonder.
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
pg4 TLD
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Do not lose sight of the dilemma of Facile's decimate.lurch wrote:Still not sure why Facile ran from them. She could of put an end to their powers seems to me...yea, she didn't want to be discovered but still...
Spoiler
While she can utterly shut down the talents of other Magisters, she is completely vulnerable to non-magical attacks.
She has good reason to want to remain undetected!
She has good reason to want to remain undetected!
Poor sales notwithstanding, this series may turn out to be a new high point in SRD's storytelling artistry.
Love prevails.
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon
Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon
Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
- TheFallen
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...and further re Facile bailing out and heading for the hills, it's worth noting that
Mind you, King Smegin showed that
It's at the moment unclear whether
I guess we'll just have to wait and see...
Spoiler
...the sorcery of the nameless invaders exceeds any known variant (e.g. sustained lightning, much more finely tuned earthquakes etc) as demonstrated by their breaking through the "impassable" reefs at the Bay of Lights.). So maybe her decimate isn't strong enough to nullify enhanced theurgy?
Spoiler
...he also had gained a previously unseen and unbelievably precise level of control over his own decimate of lightning, before he had his powers emasculated again by Facile's presence/decimate and then promptly topped himself. As we know, he could happily electrically barbecue someone without quite killing them, if he perversely so wished.
Spoiler
...Smegin achieved this single-handedly through obsessional practice zapping unfortunate Nuuri or whether he'd been secretly coached by agents of the more magically adept nameless invaders.
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron"
Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them
"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
I occasionally post things here because I am invariably correct on all matters, a thing which is educational for others less fortunate.
Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them
"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
I occasionally post things here because I am invariably correct on all matters, a thing which is educational for others less fortunate.
- Hunchback Jack
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Are there not hints of the latter? PerhapsTheFallen wrote:It's at the moment unclear whetherI guess we'll just have to wait and see...Spoiler
...Smegin achieved this single-handedly through obsessional practice zapping unfortunate Nuuri or whether he'd been secretly coached by agents of the more magically adept nameless invaders.
Spoiler
through the Church of the Great God
HBJ