Covid-19

[wayfriend]

I think the word "literally" in my sentence puts to rest any claim that I am making a merely perjorative remark - I am stating a fact-based claim. This makes it utterly and completely in a different class of comment than "Democrats hate America", which is a pure opinion.

There are already a number of cases of infection linked to the wisconson election, and that number will surely grow. And it remains a true fact that other states have postponed their elections at about the same time without undermining their integrity in any notable way. These are facts.

Coronavirus deaths greater where viewers prefer Hannity over Carlson: study The study is not complete, but then again, it merely reflects what anyone might deduce - telling people the coronavirus is nothing to worry about and that precautions are not necessary WILL endanger lives.

Trump pushing hydroxychloroquine endangered lives.

Southern states pushing to reopen their economies. It is a fact that there is a higher black population in the south and it is a fact that blacks are more in danger of coronavirus. This math should add up to the South being more reticent about re-opening than other states, not less. This WILL cause needless harm and death for blacks.

Also, promoting the injection of disinfectant to treat the virus is reckless and will endanger lives.

[Ur Dead]

I do think this plague is worst than people think. It how fast it reached about every place on the planet in such a short time. (3 months)
No other pandemic has done this. Every the nook and crevice has been affected. So unnatural.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I don't think you can calculate mortality like that, Ur.

I already told him that is not how mortality rate calculations are made; he did not listen to me then so he won't listen to you now. *shrug*

I want the unconstitutional abridgement of liberty of shooting the infected motherF*** in the head if they come near me. I want the constitution right to life.

That would actually be murder and is therefore not a liberty granted to you.

paulcoz, that is simply another reason why Trump is usually his own worst enemy because he does not know when to shut up and no one near him has the balls to get him to stop talking.

A passenger on a flight from Miami to New York City claims that the plane was over 80% full but only half of the people were wearing masks...and that American did not offer any masks to anyone. She could have gotten her reservation changed, but she ultimately chose to get on that plane.

I d think this plague is worst than people think. It how fast it reached about every place on the planet in such a short time. (3 months)
No other pandemic has done this. Every the nook and crevice has been affected. So unnatural.

Aliens.

[SoulBiter]

the percentage of people who've been hospitalised and who then end up dying there.

This ^^^^

So stay out of the hospital with Covid. Your odds are not great if you end up being admitted. They are much much worse if you end up needing a vent. Apparently by the time you realize (or they realize) you need one, damage to many organs has already begun.

States will begin opening up in a measured way over the next couple of weeks. I think pent up "spending" from being stir crazy is going to flood restaurants with business. But be aware, although this is what we need to do, there will be an increase in cases, increases in hospitalizations and increases in deaths. All that being said, if you have underlying conditions (overweight, diabetes, age, etc etc) or you are the caregiver of someone with those conditions, then don't rush out and get infected. Or if you do, realize that you put yourself at risk and the person in your care because no one is forcing you to go out.

[Ur Dead]

I want the unconstitutional abridgement of liberty of shooting the infected motherF*** in the head if they come near me. I want the constitution right to life.

That would actually be murder and is therefore not a liberty granted to you.



Aliens.

Don't agree. A number of infected people have been charge with assault for coughing/spitting on police and people.

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/cri ... f5f5a.html

https://www.wtnh.com/news/crime-news/2- ... ronavirus/

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020 ... s-covid-19

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21B3HN

I expect the charges will be upgraded to bio-terrorism.

For me it's self-defense.

[Zarathustra]

But sadly, you're not the only caricature here . . . and yes, I'm thinking of people with whom I usually agree. Hashi. Obi. This "paper please" and "home arrest" hyperbole bullshit is just as dumb and extreme as "Republicans want people to die." You guys are mirroring each other from opposite sides.

You chose to voluntarily give up your Constitutional freedoms; don't get mad at us about it. I still cannot find the phrase "except in case of viral outbreak" in the Constitution

1. I haven't given up any Constitutional freedoms.
2. I'm not mad.
3. I still cannot find the phrase, "no one has to wear a mask in Houston" in the Constitution.

Republicans are literally trying to kill Democrats.

My, what unifying sentiments you express! I'm so inspired by your warm-and-fuzzy lack of divisiveness!

No different from "They are against the United States and its principles of independence..." I might add.

You really don't think there is a difference between accusing an entire political party of attempted political genocide and saying that a party's values run counter to America's principles of independence? Killing people is a crime. An ideology is not.

[Zarathustra]

I think the word "literally" in my sentence puts to rest any claim that I am making a merely perjorative remark - I am stating a fact-based claim. This makes it utterly and completely in a different class of comment than "Democrats hate America", which is a pure opinion.

There are already a number of cases of infection linked to the wisconson election, and that number will surely grow. And it remains a true fact that other states have postponed their elections at about the same time without undermining their integrity in any notable way. These are facts.

Coronavirus deaths greater where viewers prefer Hannity over Carlson: study The study is not complete, but then again, it merely reflects what anyone might deduce - telling people the coronavirus is nothing to worry about and that precautions are not necessary WILL endanger lives.

Trump pushing hydroxychloroquine endangered lives.

Southern states pushing to reopen their economies. It is a fact that there is a higher black population in the south and it is a fact that blacks are more in danger of coronavirus. This math should add up to the South being more reticent about re-opening than other states, not less. This WILL cause needless harm and death for blacks.

Also, promoting the injection of disinfectant to treat the virus is reckless and will endanger lives.

Taking an action that may endanger lives is different from "literally trying to kill Democrats." Cars endanger lives, but automakers aren't literally trying to kill drivers. If Hannity was telling his own viewers that the coronavirus was nothing to worry about, do you think he was trying to kill his own audience (hint: not Democrats)? Was that the plan? And this would benefit him how?

I can't believe you're doubling down on dumbassery.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Not only is corona far less fatal than initially anticipated, people were going to die anyway--the virus deaths still aren't even anywhere nearly close to "death by accident" or "death due to complications of diabetes" and we never close the economy for those, so I suppose those deaths simply don't matter. Also, people who support abortion are hypocrites for caring about corona deaths--death is death, whether it is a person on a ventilator or a fetus.

Reopening the economy and voting are more important than worrying about deaths because of this virus. Period. As I said, over 1,000,000 people die each and every year from all sorts of medical conditions and accidents--look up the numbers for yourselves if you don't believe me--so closing the economy and putting all those people out of work was just panic-driven bullshit.

Pick it back up in the corona thread, though. Forget it--I'll just snip these last few.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Now those people are just assholes--coughing and spitting on people is, in the United States, generally a Class A misdemeanor or possibly a lower degree felony depending upon the circumstances. This has been the case for decades but really became more of a problem when AIDS entered the scene in the 1980s.

Don't misunderstand me, Ur Dead--I don't want anything to happen to you. Although I may agree with "open it up" protesters and disagree with the lockdowns, I actually have not gone anywhere or done anything which violates any guideline (which are not enforceable laws) and I wear mask/gloves at my part-time job. There is a friend whom I could visit but I haven't because her boyfriend (what do you call a boyfriend for someone who is about 50? "male friend?" paramour? gentleman caller? *shrug*) has immune system issues--I could inadvertently affect him by dropping by.

As I have said, I protest but I am not stupid, which is also why we are not going to visit any event on "reopening weekend"--there will far too many people in attendance.

[wayfriend]

Taking an action that may endanger lives is different from "literally trying to kill Democrats."

Which is why I never said that. Why do you pretend I did? To recap, I said one thing literally tried to kill Democrats, and some other things recklessly endangered people. You conflated them.

Equating advising people to do something dangerous with driving a car is a high form of dissembly. But nothing more.

There is really no point in confronting you guys with how mismanaged the Trump response to coronavirus is. You deflect, you misquote, you ignore,you dissemble, but you don't substantively respond.

[SoulBiter]

There is really no point in confronting you guys with how mismanaged the Trump response to coronavirus is. You deflect, you misquote, you ignore,you dissemble, but you don't substantively respond.

In retrospect, I do think that there are part of the response that have been mismanaged and others that were appropriate. However I don't believe that if there was a Democrat administration that it would be much different overall and in fact may have been worse due to their reluctance to close the borders to China and elsewhere early. It's always the same. AFTER the fact, its easy to say AHA! See you should have turned left but you turned right, but if you didn't have that knowledge up front, chances are you make the same turn.

[Savor Dam]

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Taking an action that may endanger lives is different from "literally trying to kill Democrats."

Which is why I never said that. Why do you pretend I did?

Republicans are literally trying to kill Democrats.

So you are claiming that you did not say that? Yes, I know--you can retroactively go edit your post, which is why I also took a screenshot of it.

Yet you want us to take you and your comments seriously? Yeah, okay, sure, whatever.

[TheFallen]

The problem is that for every commonsensical Hashi, there are at least a hundred brain-dead bozos. And unfortunately the unregulated actions of said brain-dead bozos could well have a directly deleterious effect on the commonsensical Hashis of this world. This being one of the core arguments for there having been a need for enforced social distancing.

[peter]

But what is the point of enforcing social distancing when our hospitals become dispersion centers for the virus as they have in the case of the noro-virus and other similar bugs that year on year sweep through the populace? I reiterate my point of above about the use of specially designated facilities (ala the tuberculosis hospitals of the twentieth century) to tackle this.

[Zarathustra]

Taking an action that may endanger lives is different from "literally trying to kill Democrats."

Which is why I never said that. Why do you pretend I did?

I'm not pretending anything. I'm rebutting. You said:

I think the word "literally" in my sentence puts to rest any claim that I am making a merely perjorative remark - I am stating a fact-based claim. This makes it utterly and completely in a different class of comment than "Democrats hate America", which is a pure opinion.

In order for "Republicans are literally trying to kill Democrats" to be a fact-based claim, you'd have to base it on some facts, specifically, facts that demonstrate their intentions, i.e. what they are TRYING to do, not merely the unintended consequences of their actions. Hence my distinction above, "Taking an action that may endanger lives is different from 'literally trying to kill Democrats.'" All you have is the former, but you are claiming the latter. And since you can't actually know what's in their hearts/minds, you are talking about pure opinion. Mean-spirited, ugly, petty, libelous dumbass opinion.

[TheFallen]

Let's take a minute to see how the hardworking boffins at the IHME are doing. You know, the geniuses with their incredibly advanced modelling algorithms whose projections on coronavirus are informing US policy.

Well, 3 days ago, having been unutterably wrong about Italy three times already, they updated their projections of total deaths for Italy yet again.

This time they've projected that there will be a total of 26,867 Italina COVID-19 deaths by August 4th, as you can see here.

Unfortunately they're going to be utterly wrong again. Italy is going to bust through this next threshold tomorrow or Monday latest. And that's been obvious for weeks. It's even more obvious now ffs - Italy's already reported 26,384 deaths and is currently adding around 400 a day.

So yet again the IHME issues yet another utterly ludicrous projection - one that's wrong by over three months. What the fuck is wrong with these people?

[TheFallen]

Republicans are literally trying to kill Democrats.

I think the word "literally" in my sentence puts to rest any claim that I am making a merely perjorative remark - I am stating a fact-based claim

As some may know here, I am a linguist by training. It therefore strikes me that wayfriend may very possibly have issues with understanding the meanings of the words he uses. So let me help out here with some grade school definitions:-

fact (n.): Something that can be empirically proven to have happened or exist.

literally (adv.): Intensifier denoting that what has been stated is unequivocally real and true.

Perhaps if I use an example, it might help? Here's one...

"Wayfriend, if you make any further attempt to defend your comment as posted above, it is a fact that there is literally no point in engaging in any discussion with you at all, because you are the very definition of irrational and self-blinded fanaticism."

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Taking an action that may endanger lives is different from "literally trying to kill Democrats."

Which is why I never said that. Why do you pretend I did? To recap, I said one thing literally tried to kill Democrats, and some other things recklessly endangered people. You conflated them. ...

[...]

Rather than insist that you can't possibly clarify your initial point, I'd like to cordially invite you to do so, in a congenial space far from any pissing-contests.

Full Disclosure: I must confess that I'm also a bit confused, though I've not put much effort into sorting out the whole kerfuffle.

• The "one thing" which "literally tried to kill Democrats" was ___________________[fill in the blank]___________________.
• The "other things" which "recklessly endangered people" were ___________________[fill in the blank]___________________.

[Skyweir]

Though it may not be reflected in my posts here, personally, I have found myself on both sides of this debate as I listen to friends and family draw battle lines and take sides. My posts haven't emphasized this personal, private debate, because I've mainly been reacting here to Obi's forceful, uncompromising position (I mean that both ways--both good and bad. As TF says, it can be respectable to stick to your guns, but also short-sighted and inflexible).

As I've addressed in the SCOTUS thread, I think many of the perspectives here are caricatures of this debate . We have "Closers" and "Openers." I'm neither. I see the value in both positions, and think we need both approaches, at different times. As I said in the other thread, this article from Reason.com spells out the differences and how each side is exaggerating those differences with mean-spirited, dumbass caricatures.

What I found really surprising is this snippet of a description of "Openers:"

Openers do take very seriously the idea of "flattening the curve"-perhaps, an Opener might think, even more seriously than the Closers do, because Openers can't help but think that this virus will, over whatever length of time, infect everyone everywhere until herd immunity is reached or by whatever method R0 becomes less than one.

That is, Openers think it reasonable to consider that we are not facing a choice to "save lives" (or delay deaths) in the sense of preventing infections from ever occurring, which is more or less impossible now. The only really important consideration now is excess deaths or serious illness complications caused by inadequate medical facilities because at some given day in some specific hospital COVID cases are overwhelmingly large.

Openers thus wonder why more public policy decisions aren't being made based on a rigorous calculation of that number, now and in a reasonably foreseeable future based on best understanding of our hospital capacity, how quickly we could increase that capacity if that became public policy priority one, and the prevalence, percentage symptomatic, and percentage brought to brink of death by the disease.

So I'm an Opener! I never would have guessed! Given my experience lately in the Tank, I've taken Obi as emblematic of the "Opener." But the above doesn't describe him. Instead of focusing on the danger of overwhelming the health care system (as opposed to death rates or infection rates), Obi completely dismisses that concern along with all the rest of them. He has said that none of these dangers were as bad as advertised, and none of the fears--including overwhelming hospitals--were ever going to happen (even as some hospitals have been in danger of being overwhelmed). Apparently, this is not your typical, reasonable "Opener." It's an extreme.

But then I read more and think I'm a Closer:

However, the Closers have many reasons that make sense to them to keep things closed that don't involve a mad desire to tyrannize the country or harm Trump. Closers see and acknowledge the economic damage we are suffering, but they see most of that damage already inherent in the unchecked spread of a disease that kills or seriously harms people to a greater extent than any we've dealt with in a century. They thus don't see the economic problems as solvable just by "opening up America."

This describes me a few weeks ago, before I decided it was time to open the economy again. I have said that the economic damage was going to happen anyway, given an unchecked virus pandemic.

But then I read crazy shit like this:

Closers see anyone who, aware that COVID-19 exists and can spread asymptomatically, then does anything that could in any way risk someone else catching it as morally akin to murderers.

Nope, I'm not a Closer in that sense!

I think we all need to take a step back from our battle lines and stop this me-vs-you bullshit approach to a very serious debate. It's not an issue of values vs deaths. We're not two camps comprised of A) people who want others to die and B) people who want tyranny. That's just a cartoon, folks! After this is all over, we're going to see that the worst fears on either side were exaggerated. Overstating the case, painting the other side in black-and-white extremes, only gets in the way of striking an effective middle ground that take all concerns into consideration, seeking a balance of pros/cons.

I guess I'm the one arguing for unity, after all. Huh, ironic.

Wow a brilliantly articulated journey right here lol I find myself nodding along with this post.

I think anything can be politicised and this is no exception. I dont believe in the typical labelling of different sides of this issue. I think there are merits in the case to open and close.

I live in rural Australia .. and work outdoors from sun up to after sun down. My work is extremely low risk re COVID 19 ... here no one at all has the virus and tbh I have wondered if its all a bit overblown. But then I see countries and high density population centres where COVID19 is a real and present threat.

And despite my personal low risk work and living environment... I have implemented robust COVID19 protocols. Where we have the wildlife veterinary triage clinic we have a sanitisation station at the gate, at the clinic, we have signage to remind people of personal hygeine standards, wiping surfaces regularly, maintaining practicable social distances etc.

Mostly to assure our sponsors we have appropriate mitigation protocols in place but I know the lockdown is having a hugelet negative impact on the economy.

My own small business has been impacted since No. 2019 with the bushfires and now COVID19.

I see that to flatten the curve of spread social distancing AND attention to personal hygeine has been effective simple mechanisms to achieve this.

I can see Australia has almost 7000 cases in total and about 81 deaths, to date ... and from memory about a month ago, when the government released its COVID19 protocols, there were about 60 something deaths.



Observably the lockdown etc is having an impact .. so there is value in their implementation.

But yes Im not sure how long it can continue. Im concerned .. I will eventually run out of savings lol and should TP replace todays currency .. I dont have sufficient TP supplies to barter with