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Gaius Octavius
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

Dude, you're arguing with yourself.

You quoted your own post to argue with it?
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TheFallen
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Post by TheFallen »

Nano, no I am not.

You'll find that the more one interacts with posters such as wayfriend, the more one will have a need to quote oneself, because he has a very long-standing habit of trying to twist what has been said to suit his own fanatical agenda.

Absolutely archetypal case in point here. I stated that both sides are courting the extremist fringe and cited Biden's farcical "allies of the Light vs agents of the Dark" as a clear example of this.

wf decided to misrepresent this as my saying that "recognising someone as corrupt when they actually are corrupt is lunatic" (which of course I have not once said) and promptly proceeded to harangue me on that basis. Classic wayfriend tactics there.

Of course what I was actually saying - and as repeated in my last post - was that for either side to present the current contest as an utterly polarised battle between Good and Evil is indeed lunatic. Or lying. Or both.

Needless to say, wayfriend decided to dodge that point - as ever - and instead reply to a point that had never been made. Again, classic and much evidenced (though extremely tiresome, dishonest, intellectually cowardly and frankly, banal) tactics.

I've said this before - the only time I have ever felt the need to quote myself in the Tank is when dealing with the deeply deceptive and quite deliberately disingenuous likes of him.
Last edited by TheFallen on Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" :roll:

Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them

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Post by sgt.null »

WF - today's manufactured bombshell seems to be thst Trump is the one blocking getting .only to the American people. Of course there is still time for an anonymously sourced 'bombshell' to hit.

The problems with the money 💰 lie? Trump is not in Congress. Pelosi is. Pelosi has loaded up the relief bill with pork 🐖 that has nothing to do with average Americans 🇺🇸 . And the democrats have no reason to help Americans if it is seen as helping Trump.
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Post by wayfriend »

TheFallen wrote:Are you seriously claiming that either painting Trump as or believing Trump to be "the embodiment of Evil... or the Antichrist, if you like" - and those were the exact words I used in my post above - are acts of rational individuals?
Nope. I thiink that those are YOUR words, painting the beliefs of rational people as irrational. Which I've said three times now. No twist in evidence.

AGAIN, you blame the people disliking Trump for the vast array of wrongs he has done -- but you don't blame Trump for the vast array of wrongs he has done.

AGAIN, you blame the people pointing out how you argue fallaciously for the sake of demeaning and insulting people -- but you take no blame for arguing fallaciously for the sake of demeaning and insulting people.
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Post by wayfriend »

sgt.null wrote: Of course there is still time for an anonymously sourced 'bombshell' to hit.
I predict that, in the next 40 days, Biden will be charged by agents of Barr's Department of Justice with federal crimes.

Reasons for:
- Trump has corrupted the DoJ to the degree that charging political foes is the next logical step.
- He has called for his 'enemies' to be arrested/charged innumerable times
- He and his allies have been undermining election integrity for many months
- He believes "Lock her up" worked for him in 2016
- He is desperate to win; he himself will be charged with crimes when he leaves office
- It only has to hold up until people vote

Reasons against:
- Trump would never do that? ha ha ha
- Biden didn't do anything illegal? ha ha ha
- Trump's administration would not support him in such an illegal act? ha ha ha
- He would be checked/balanced for misuse of power? ha ha ha
- The loaded courts would strike it down? ha ha ha

... wait for it ...

... wait for it ...
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Gaius Octavius
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

To be honest, Barr should never have been confirmed by the senate. He was a Nixon stooge who was willing to lie on behalf of Nixon's blatant corruption, and Trump knew that he would be corrupt enough to help him out, too.

The only Republican senator I have any respect for would be Mitt Romney. The rest of you are traitorous, spineless losers.
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Post by sgt.null »

Ur - of course you like Romney, he's aligned himself with the Democrats. He really should be honest with voters and switch parties.

WF - if Biden gets charged with something it will be because he is guilty of something. If you are bringing it up I am assuming there has been some talking points sent out by the Democrats.
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Post by TheFallen »

wayfriend wrote:
TheFallen wrote:Are you seriously claiming that either painting Trump as or believing Trump to be "the embodiment of Evil... or the Antichrist, if you like" - and those were the exact words I used in my post above - are acts of rational individuals?
Nope. I thiink that those are YOUR words, painting the beliefs of rational people as irrational. Which I've said three times now. No twist in evidence.
Those are indeed my words... but a pretty close paraphrase of Biden's nomination acceptance speech. Would you like me to find the verbatim quotes for you?

Happy to do so... here's just a few.

Biden described himself as "an ally of the Light, not of the Darkness." (His words, not mine.)

Biden stated "At the time, I said we were in a battle for the soul of this nation. And we are." (His words, not mine.)

Biden stated "May history be able to say that the end of this chapter of American Darkness began here tonight as love and hope and Light joined in the battle for the soul of the nation." (His words, not mine.)

That is bizarre, lunatic, polarising and utterly divisive hyperbole. It's nuts, it's Lord Of The Rings, it's end of times. Here's a repeat of the piccy it inspired the posting of:-
Image
That is precisely how Biden seeks to frame the debate - Dem elves vs Pub orcs. He's defined it in pure binary and what's worse, morally ideological fashion. And that is lunatic by any measure.

And then he has the hypocritical gall to start banging on about Trump causing division??? Which of course Trump absolutely has but hey Joe, check the mirror out, gramps. :roll:
wayfriend wrote:AGAIN, you blame the people disliking Trump for the vast array of wrongs he has done -- but you don't blame Trump for the vast array of wrongs he has done.
Can you not read?

Read my lips. I do not blame anyone for thinking Trump is a piss-poor president. At all. He absolutely is and there is absolutely a whole heap of evidence to support that view, as I have said repeatedly.

What I *do* blame people for is their trite and extreme whataboutism, for their fanatical refusal to even take an objective glance at their own side - and please note that's whether they're utterly blinkered and radicalised Pub supporters or utterly blinkered and radicalised Dem supporters.

The order of the day - as I have continually said - is that all the vast majority of people seem to do is tacitly accept that their own side is perfect on the sole basis that the other side is pretty shit. That's both blinkered zealotry and a logical non-sequitur.

If anyone is idiot enough to have been taken in by the hyperpolarised and binary issue-framing that's being promoted, then they're either moronic, insane, radicalised or dishonest. Reality isn't like that.

How many times do I need to say the same thing, wf? How about you grasp what people actually say and write, rather than foaming at the mouth and raging at whatever you mistakenly instantly assume has been said or written?
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" :roll:

Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them

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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

wayfriend wrote:I predict that, in the next 40 days, Biden will be charged by agents of Barr's Department of Justice with federal crimes.
Are you willing to make a bet out of it? If so, what do you wager? I suspect that he will not be charged with any crimes...at least until after the election and we figure out who won, which may not happen until Thanksgiving (if we are lucky) or Christmas (if we are not lucky).

Democrats only call out corruption if the other guys are doing it. Chicago's Democrat-based corruption usually has a price tag of $500 million each year (you can look up the numbers for yourself, if you like).
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Post by TheFallen »

I've suddenly had a revelation. I've worked out why wayfriend is literally incapable of understanding or replying in the slightest bit relevantly to a single word I say.

It's because in his (and no doubt in some equally self-radicalised others') bizarre and hyperpolarised view of the world, I represent something that simply cannot possibly exist. It's a paradox that if acknowledged, destroys his extremist and utterly blinkered hold on his self- created "reality".

In a world, where according to wf and his ilk on either swivel-eyed fringe, it is quite literally only possible for people to be neatly divided into either elves or orcs, allies of the Light or agents of the Dark, ultimate Good or ultimate Evil, the existence of someone stating that both sides are really pretty shit, both blatantly hypocritical and both pretty much as bad as each other is going to cause him a complete brain fritz. It'll be a total head fuck. Bzzzzt... Warning... Alert, alert. Internal reality challenged... Internal logical impossibility detected...Does not compute. Fatal error. Danger, danger Will Robinson.

Hence he spirals off at tangents, misinterprets, is incapable of comprehension of even the most simply and clearly expressed opinion and instead starts foaming at the mouth for no easily apparent reason and ranting with no discernible justification.

That's the trouble with being so utterly convinced that everything and everyone is neatly, clearly and inevitably divisible in purely binary fashion, exclusively and solely being at either one extreme or the other.

Sad, really... but it's the only possible explanation as to why he keeps trying to portray me as a Trump/Pub supporter. In his bizarre world, I simply must be, on the sole basis that I am not a Biden/Dem supporter. Therefore I am not one of the true faith and deserve all the jihadi fatwah that he can muster to pour on my unclean infidel head.

If not A, then B... seamless and unassailable logic there, eh? :roll:
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" :roll:

Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them

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Post by Skyweir »

ugh it would seem you are becoming a part of the inane madness TF.

Who gives a shit what Biden thinks? Who gives a shit what Trump or his Trumpers think? They’re all wacko.

If I prefer Biden over Trump suddenly I become part of THAT madness.

No I don’t. Cuz I don’t see Biden, Trump or ANY politician as supreme divinities or supreme anything.

Those that do have their vision skewed.

Barr has proven he’s a puppet but worse that he thinks he’s a puppet master ... orchestrating events to herald in the 2nd coming of a Messiah.

Right?

Nutters the lot of em ... using faux religiosity advice their banners.

To my mind THAT is evil ... that level of manipulation.

Is Biden any better? Maybe not ... but Trump has had his 3 years and has demonstrated his leadership, what his priorities are, who and what he cares about ... and who he is. THAT convinced me that he is not fit for public office. Fuck he’s not fit for public influence.

I’m not sure how you combat the fake news the polarisation 🤔 but perhaps it starts by challenging and reporting all political messaging and demanding evidence-based narratives. Beyond that ... it seems as systemic as it gets.
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Post by TheFallen »

Skyweir wrote:ugh it would seem you are becoming a part of the inane madness TF.
Erm... did you actually read my post and digest what it was saying?

I strongly doubt it, because then you go on to say this:-
Skyweir wrote:Who gives a shit what Biden thinks? Who gives a shit what Trump or his Trumpers think? They're all wacko.

If I prefer Biden over Trump suddenly I become part of THAT madness.

No I don't. Cuz I don't see Biden, Trump or ANY politician as supreme divinities or supreme anything.

Those that do have their vision skewed.

...

Nutters the lot of em ... using faux religiosity advice their banners.

To my mind THAT is evil ... that level of manipulation.
...absolutely. Yes yes YES. THAT is precisely much of what I have been saying for fucking months. You m'dear are categorically agreeing with me.

I'm just getting sick and tired of being accused of being a Trump supporter, solely because I am not constantly and unfailingly singing Biden's praises at the top of my voice and/or because I am not slamming Trump with every single word I utter.

And anyone can prefer Biden over Trump or vice versa... or the Pubs over the Dems or vice versa. That's absolutely all fine and exactly as it should be...

...BUT if someone BLINDLY throws their support behind EITHER side without even bothering to take even the briefest of objective and dispassionate looks at their own side, THEN they have been at best unwittingly manipulated by those with malign agendas into having their vision skewed - to largely use your own undoubtedly apposite words. All that leads to is the unrelievedly depressing and futile "yeah but whattabout...?" trench warware that seems to be indelibly ingrained everywhere. And that's also the textbook definition of "radicalisation" - and from what I'm seeing (both here and elsewhere... in fact, pretty much everywhere), there's an awful lot of it about.

To be fair, I have almost certainly been more critical of Biden and the Dems... but it's really important to understand why. Three simple reasons:-

1. I'm taking Trump as being on balance but very definitely a piss-poor president. That's not been at all a surprise to me - Trump is Trump and will never improve (nor was he ever going to). There is so much evidence for this that I barely find it worth mentioning. It's entirely a given and it's almost pointless referencing - to do so has about as much use as continually ranting on and on and on that "Hey! Water is WET! Wet, I tell you.... WET!!!"

2. But the Dems can be BETTER than the incumbent - well, they have the choice to be so. And that is what I hope for. I want Biden & the Dems (well, the Dems anyway because Biden is - and should be - an irrelevance. This ain't - or categorically shouldn't be - no personality contest) to be BETTER than Trump.

But all I'm seeing from the Dems is much of the same pantomime, much of the same deliberate attempts to polarise (as per the "faux religiosity" that you also quite correctly highlight). And given that they've got such a staggeringly low bar to clear, I am equally staggered at the way they're choosing to go about it. They're exhibiting all the same faults that they slam Trump for. And that really pisses me off.

3. I do largely buy into Hashi's oft-made claim that the sheer hatred emanating from most Dems (and looking at the degrees of venom within all sectors of the political debate, "hatred" is a pretty damn accurate word) is first and foremost ideologically based, founded upon an intrinsic and unassailable belief in their moral supremacy. I find that both strongly ridiculous and moreover, rather concerning... which is why I keep using words like jihadism and fatwah to highlight the extremism within such views, because IMV it is entirely appropriate to do so. The Dems could do with dropping this self-made claim ASAP and in so doing, they'd stop risking alienating more centrist voters and causing even more division.

Even cynically and pragmatically speaking, it makes no sense for the Dems to use the sort of hyperpolarising messaging that panders to their particular lunatic fringe, simply because they've always had those votes in the bag already. So why are they doing this?

So for fuck's sakes, come on Dems. Surely you can be better than Trump? So why not start using messaging that proves this, rather than endlessly demonstrating that to almost all intents and purposes... you're exactly the same. FFS this election shouldn't even be close... but it's your ludicrous tactics that are making it so.

Crystal clear, I hope...
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" :roll:

Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them

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Post by sgt.null »

Biden and Trump had town halls yesterday.

How the people in the town halls identified.

Biden , 13 democrats. 3 Republicans.

Trump - 4 Trump voters, 3 Hilary voters, 1 Jill Stein voter, 3 non voters. 3 unidentified.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

TheFallen wrote:I've suddenly had a revelation. I've worked out why wayfriend is literally incapable of understanding or replying in the slightest bit relevantly to a single word I say.

It's because in his (and no doubt in some equally self-radicalised others') bizarre and hyperpolarised view of the world, I represent something that simply cannot possibly exist. It's a paradox that if acknowledged, destroys his extremist and utterly blinkered hold on his self- created "reality".

In a world, where according to wf and his ilk on either swivel-eyed fringe, it is quite literally only possible for people to be neatly divided into either elves or orcs, allies of the Light or agents of the Dark, ultimate Good or ultimate Evil, the existence of someone stating that both sides are really pretty shit, both blatantly hypocritical and both pretty much as bad as each other is going to cause him a complete brain fritz. It'll be a total head fuck. Bzzzzt... Warning... Alert, alert. Internal reality challenged... Internal logical impossibility detected...Does not compute. Fatal error. Danger, danger Will Robinson.
Every time I have mentioned the False Dichotomy before I get accused of "whataboutism", as if pointing out Democrat flaws means I am excusing Republican flaws. If you and I witness a natural phenomenon, conduct some experiments to figure out what is happening, and arrive at different conclusions, that doesn't mean that either of us is actually correct or incorrect. What is means is that we approached the problem differently and, in fact, we are both probably wrong because of some other phenomenon we don't understand.

As you said, both sides can actually be wrong; however, too many Democrats think not only that they are correct but that anyone who does not believe exactly as they believe must, by definition, be wrong. Not just wrong, mind you, but morally wrong or evil. Their demonization of the other side is what is ruining things.
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Post by Avatar »

The right demonises the left too Hashi. In fact, accusing them of demonising the other side (which they certainly do) is demonising them in itself, especially when it is so broadly painted.

We might quibble over who is demonising the other more, but that's the problem...most people on the left (or right) see that demonisation and go "But I'm not like that, why are they accusing me of that?"

And that alienates them and further polarises them.

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