How many of us would have stayed?

[Bannor]

In "Leper's End, the final chapter of The Power that Preserves, Covenant is offered the chance to stay in the Land, to live out the rest of his life in health and honor. How many here would have stayed/left and why?

[Hearthcoal]

Good question! Tough choice. I have two answers:

1) If, hypothetically, my life was similar to TC's (no very close friends back in "my" world, fatal disease back in "my" world, stigma back in "my" world, failed marriage back in "my" world, etc., etc.) I think would have stayed. Whatever his "problems" in the Land, in my eyes they pale in comparison to his problems in his own world.

2) If my life were more like it really is (very satisfying on the whole: great marriage, loving-though-not-perfect family, interesting friends including the KW gang) I would have decided to come back.

I still don't see why TC chose to return to his own world. What purpose did he have there...writing? some vague notion of loyalty to his own world (sort of global patriotism)? the hope that his presence would be meaningful one day to Roger or Joan? or just the familiar "devil-you-know" comfort level?

I wonder what the Second Chronicles would have been like if TC had stayed. Maybe that's a moot question. The Second Chronicles happened some 4000 years after the First so he would have been dead. On the other hand, the works that men do live on after them. Perhaps TC would have shaped the values and culture of the Land in such a way that the Clave could not have come about the way that it did.

Now...if TC died a natural death after a long, healthy and satisfying life in the Land would he have awakened back in his own world after a two or three month coma or something like it?

(Here is an obsure thought - From start to finish, TC does not like horses. Is it any surprise that he has an allergic reation to the anti-venom made from horse serum?)

[danlo]

Reality is so much more rewarding than fantasy--we can weave good magic here if we put our hearts and efforts in2 it. When I first read TPTP I would have stayed, 4 alot of the same reasons Heartcoal mentioned. I'm glad I didn't: I would never have discovered myself and the beautiful, precious Tamara if I had (now don't y'all start getting emotional on me! )

[Bannor]

Great replies Danlo and Hearthcoal. When I asked the question, I was intending my meaning to be "if you were Thomas Covenant". I would rather come back to my loving family and friends, but I voted as if I were Thomas Covenant. I would have stayed had I been Thomas Covenant.
And what a neat idea, Hearthcoal: had he stayed, would he have appeared to be in a coma? And when he died in the Land, would he have come out of the coma in the real world? Interesting theory about the horses.
I must not be really clear a lot of times:
[Last week, I asked a math question: If the band is 1/5 boys, and the choir is 2/7 boys, and the orchestra is 1/4 boys, which group is mostly girls? One student responded with "TLC".]
I shall strive for clarity.

[Hearthcoal]

Was your student referring to that "girl group" called TLC? (I think they perform "hip-hop" and one of their members was killed in a car accident in Honduras recently - someone with the name of Lisa "Left-eye" Lopez.)

[danlo]

What xactly was it that sent TC back after TPTP? His summoner was still alive--he wasn't dying in the Land--wasn't it the power of the white gold destroying that piece of the Illearth Stone that sent him back--I think so, but I'm not sure, anyway wouldn't Foul's Creche falling down all around him have killed him had he stayed? I don't know if TC had a choice in staying there or not--got some research 2 do...

[Bannor]

I truly believe that the Creator would not have offered Covenant a chance to stay in the Land only to die immediately. So I think the offer to stay and be healthy was a true one. Covenant just wanted to go home (though I'm sure he was tempted to stay).
Hearthcoal, yes, the student was talking about the singing group. I had to make an excuse to step into the hall, so the student would not see me crying with laughter!

[amanibhavam]

another question: if he had stayed, how long would've he lived? Would his life parallel the "real" world and last ten thousand years in the Land?

[Guest]

I believe that I would have left the land. I'm not certain if my reasons are sound, but here goes anyway. 1) I would have left because I would have been driven crazy by all of the paradoxes that would still have been there around TC. And also by the foreknowledge that ultimate power corrupts ultimately. I mean, with the power that TC had, he was the equivalent of both the creator and foul. 2) From having come from a land where he was powerless, to have that kind of power is dangerous. 3) The knowledge that he would someday perish as all within the land from old age, who would have then gotten their hands on the white gold? And even though it was a "dream", would he have wanted to have the knowledge that the dream would have been destroyed?

[Foamfollower1013]

But his summoner wasn't still alive, danlo...Triock and Foamfollower summoned him, and by that point they were both dead.

~Foamy~

[Bannor]

I thought that was correct as well, Foamfollower, but didn't have the energy to do the research. (too lazy is probably more appropriate) How long was the life span in the Land: not compared to the real world, rather how long could a person expect to live in the Land?

[Coercri]

Ahhh this is a harder question to answer than I originally anticipated........ From my point of view or Covenants'.......

For Covenant, I believe going back to his world was the best choice for him. Although he had grown to love the land & the people in it he did not "belong there" as he stated to Lena in TPTP. His reality was defined by suffering & strife........it would have driven him insane to step back into an Age of Innocence, away from

the devil he knows

Similar to Sunder & Hollians' plight after they leave the domain of the Sunbane, they are uncomfortable & not quite sure how to be effective in this brave new world that they are encountering. Then look at Hile Troy....he wanted so badly to belong that in the end he was almost pathetic. He was not a child of that world & would of been better off being true to his heritage & self while trying to contribute & make his way in the Land IMHO....

For myself........I would have to think that if the Creator was offering such a generous reward that he would not hesitate in extended it to include a person's loved ones......& although this world is wonderous & beautiful......it would be no comparison....the Land & the people in it are everything we hope & strive to be, how could one resist.

Now onto the idea of what would of happened if Covenant had stayed......would his life have

lasted 10,000 years in the land

.... that's a very interesting question, it seems possible. Also, wasn't it mentioned somewhere in the Chronicles that the Old Lords had lived near a 1,000 years by virtue of their power?? Would the White Gold of perserved Covenant as long? Maybe longer??? It's conceivable that he would have been around for the return of Lord Foul. But thousands of years of holding such immense power in your hands while helplessly watching everyone that you love grow old & die......would he of been the sort of champion that the land needed, would that life have led him to the correct end?

Or even more interesting yet the question above of who would of inherited the White Gold after him......could you imagine it in the hands of the Clave???

I don't know how to vote ..............Coercri

[danlo]

Ur right Foamy! I was thinking of the IEW 4 some dumb reason --so he had no choice--once SHFF died he HAD 2 go back--did the Creator offer him the chance 2 go back 2 The Land?

[Skyweir]

Jump up and down and scream .. but didnt the Creator offer TC immortality in the Land? Life yes ... but was it 'mortal' life??

Even if it was just a Creator's earth life time .. it was an offer of life .. he was due to die in the real world from the snake venum wasnt he? And if not for the Creator's gift of his healing .. he would indeed have died .. either way he was toast in the real world .. or quite possibly also toast in the Land .. as Danlo .. said .. (I think it was D) .. he would more than likely have been crushed by the falling rubble of the destruction of Fouls' Creche ..

Without the Creators intervention .. TC was dead or dead .. take your pick?

I would definitely have stayed if I were TC .. but I guess he was worried about the little girl and saving her real world ass. Gotta take your hat off to that ..

[pitchwife]

If I recall correctly the creator offers Covenant to live the rest of his life in honor and health. He doesn't offer him immortality.

By choosing to stay Covenant would actually be choosing to die in his world. Hile Troy had stayed in the land because he had died in our world. No matter how bad life is, choosing to die is like commiting suicide. That's a hard decision to make. The whole first Chronicles are about Covenant's struggle to survive. If I were Covenant there would be only one choice for me - return to my life in the real world.
-pitch

[Bannor]

I agree with you, Pitchwife, and I think I would have stayed only if my life would be mortal. An immortal has to watch his friends and family die (unless they're immortal as well). No parent should ever have to bury his/her children.

[Skyweir]

Well said Pitchwife .. I think you are right there .. the first chrons was primarily about TC's struggle for survival .. and to accept the Creators offer of life in the Land .. would have been surrender for TC .. the surrender to all he has struggled against .. 'failure'. Going back .. with the assistance of the Creator ofcourse .. secured a personal victory for him .. in the face of the harsh hand he had been dealt.

Really good point .. and I change my position on this and am inclined to agree .. going back was the only 'real' choice he had.

I dont know if we can say no parent should ever have to bury a child .. sometimes there is no choice there .. its not the optimum outcome but it happens .. When we accept life .. we accept all that comes into the bargain ..

Its easy to say TC should have been better staying in the Land .. I for one thought so .. especially given that he didnt have a social network in the real world .. or a 'family' to speak of .. just a lot of negativity and pain ..

He had to save the snake bitten girl .. and that was in his reality .. and walking away from that .. not to mention all his personal pain .. would have been burying his soul in escapism ..

too tempting .. too easy ..

[aliantha]

No matter how bad life is, choosing to die is like commiting suicide. That's a hard decision to make.

But then in the 2d Chrons, Covenant makes exactly that decision. And at that point, he has everything to live for, because he's found Linden. Why did he decide differently the second time? I think it's because at the end of the 1st Chrons, TC still wasn't ready to believe that the Land was really real. But when it came time to decide, in the 2d Chrons, whether to save his own butt in our world or save the Land, TC chose to save the Land. I think it's because he had finally thrown his lot in with the people of the Land -- whether they were real or not, they were worth fighting for.

Anyway. I voted to stay in the Land at the end of TPTP. And I think if TC had been of the mind that he'd been in the 2d Chrons when the question came up again, that's probably what he would have chosen to do.

[Bannor]

Thanks, Skyweir for your thoughts. The key (operative) word I used is should (and I pray I don't sound like Bill Clinton ). I believe that no parent should have to bury his/her children, but, as you noted, it's something that has to be done on occasion. "If a man live, it is a surety that he will die." Good notes on the snake-bitten girl. It certainly made more sense for Covenant to go back at that moment (when the Land was basically in good hands) to save the girl. Kinda reminds me of a definition of love: when you care for someone even more than for yourself. What a guy TC was!

[Guest]

Aliantha,
I almost stopped reading the second Chronicles out of grief when I understood, at the end of TOT, that Covenant was going to die in the real world.
Did Covenant know that this was what was going to happen when he took Joan's place? He knew that Lord Foul wanted him to come to the Land but did he know that he was going to pay for it with his life? I'm not sure about it, I think that he still had hope to be able to return to the real world before it was too late. At the end of TOT Covenant tries to send Linden back to save him:

But he did not silence his power. He altered it. Suddenly wild magic flooded into her through his embrace. She went rigid with dismay and intuitive comprehension, tried to resist. ...
His might bore her away. It did not touch her physically. It did not unbind her arms from him, did not harm her body. But it translated everything. Rushing through her like a torrent, it swept her out of herself, frayed her as if she were a mound of sand eroded by the sea, hurled her out among the stars.
Night burst by her on all sides. The heavans writhed about her as if she were the pivot of their fate. Abysms of loneliness stretched out like absolute grief in every direction, contradicting the fact that she still felt Covenant in her arms, still saw the enclosure of the well. And those sensations were fading. She clung to them with frenzy; but wild magic burned them to ash in her grasp and cast her adrift. She floated away into fathomless midnight.
Echoing without sound or hope, Covenant's voice rose after her: "Save my life!"

When Covenant understands that he is going to die he is completly devastated. (So was I)
I think that in WGW he learns to accept his fate, but I still don't think that he consciously chose it.

-pitch