Fatal Musings: Epic Vision
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- wayfriend
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I'm glad to hear you liked it. I'm also glad to hear it's interesting, because like anyone I do fear laying an egg. So thanks.
One of the reasons I write these kinds of posts is to encourage people to know that they can discuss these things. If I can, anyone can. Let loose with the ideas, barnetto!
One of the reasons I write these kinds of posts is to encourage people to know that they can discuss these things. If I can, anyone can. Let loose with the ideas, barnetto!
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- ninjaboy
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I thought that was a really well-written essay. Very thought out and it really does emphasise what is so special about the Chronicles.. Well not the *only* thing that is special about the Chronicles..
This 'epic vision' is one of the reasons I am irritated by those who just put it down after the rape scene.. Because they really are missing out on something truly remarkable. And reading 'Twilight' instead. *shudd
This 'epic vision' is one of the reasons I am irritated by those who just put it down after the rape scene.. Because they really are missing out on something truly remarkable. And reading 'Twilight' instead. *shudd
Forgive my death.
It was my flesh that failed you, not my love.
It was my flesh that failed you, not my love.
- wayfriend
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I've been thinking, I could have written a whole subsection in Epic Vision about the jheherrin.
For what purpose did Covenant encounter these beings shortly before his confrontation with the Despiser? The help that Covenant and the giant needed in order to penetrate Foul's Creche could have taken any form. So, why creatures of mud?
The jheherrin are pitiful, and weak, and cowardly, and impotent. Their nature is such that they cannot tolerate something as innocuous as sunlight. They fear the Maker, under whose very nose they eak out a futile, childless existence. They live as if any day they will all be wiped out, and only by remaining craven can they hope to survive.
They are, by any and all accounts, beings fully living in the Ironic Mode.
In fact, they are so Ironic Mode, they make lepers seem like superheroes.
It is plausible that this is why Covenant meets them.
On the path of his story arc, Covenant is just about to confront the Despiser. Whatever character transformations he needed to make in order to be ready for that, he has made them. He has epic vision. Latent, unknown to himself, and untested. He has come a long way since he was a scared, self-protecting leper daring to go into town to pay his phone bill.
When he meets the jheherrin, he is meeting himself, as he used to be.
The result is tears. He feels concern and pity for the jheherrin, and sadness at their state. He is appalled that he may have distressed them by interfering with their sole dream of a Perfect One.
It is interesting the the jheherrin cannot abide the sun. They seem to be the precursors of the people of the Land in the Second Chronicles, who suffer under the Sunbane. Like those people, the jheherrin live in the Ironic Mode, and lack epic vision.
In the Second Chronicles, Covenent gives back to the people of the Land the epic vision that they have lost. Similarly, in the Second Chronicles, we find that has also given it to the jheherrin. They are now the sur-jheherrin.
How were they transformed so?
I'd like to think that, in daring to help Foamfollower and Covenant, they took the first steps on a journey of self-discovery. They found what was always within themselves. When children came to them, it was not because of a miracle manifested by the Pure One, but because they had managed to transform themselves, harness their own destinies. When they believed in themselves, they became potent, and potent, they became prolific.
For what purpose did Covenant encounter these beings shortly before his confrontation with the Despiser? The help that Covenant and the giant needed in order to penetrate Foul's Creche could have taken any form. So, why creatures of mud?
The jheherrin are pitiful, and weak, and cowardly, and impotent. Their nature is such that they cannot tolerate something as innocuous as sunlight. They fear the Maker, under whose very nose they eak out a futile, childless existence. They live as if any day they will all be wiped out, and only by remaining craven can they hope to survive.
They are, by any and all accounts, beings fully living in the Ironic Mode.
In fact, they are so Ironic Mode, they make lepers seem like superheroes.
It is plausible that this is why Covenant meets them.
On the path of his story arc, Covenant is just about to confront the Despiser. Whatever character transformations he needed to make in order to be ready for that, he has made them. He has epic vision. Latent, unknown to himself, and untested. He has come a long way since he was a scared, self-protecting leper daring to go into town to pay his phone bill.
When he meets the jheherrin, he is meeting himself, as he used to be.
The result is tears. He feels concern and pity for the jheherrin, and sadness at their state. He is appalled that he may have distressed them by interfering with their sole dream of a Perfect One.
It is interesting the the jheherrin cannot abide the sun. They seem to be the precursors of the people of the Land in the Second Chronicles, who suffer under the Sunbane. Like those people, the jheherrin live in the Ironic Mode, and lack epic vision.
In the Second Chronicles, Covenent gives back to the people of the Land the epic vision that they have lost. Similarly, in the Second Chronicles, we find that has also given it to the jheherrin. They are now the sur-jheherrin.
Certainly, the sur-jheherrin have some amount of epic vision that their ancestors lacked. Creatures who could face pain and risk. They flourish in their environment, rather than suffer within it. They made momentous decisions without hesitation. They are far from being strong beings as we know strong, but in their own way, they strive and dare and are not afraid to tackle the world and stand up for what they believe in.In [u]The Wounded Land[/u] was wrote:From cave to mud pit, quagmire to swamp, underground spring to riverbed, they moved northward across the years, seeking terrain in which they could flourish. And they found what they needed in the Sarangrave. For them, it was a place of safety: their clay flesh and mobility, their ability to live in the bottoms of quicksands and streams, suited them perfectly to the Flat. And in safety they healed their old terror, became creatures who could face pain and risk, if need arose.
Thus their gratitude toward the Pure One grew rather than diminished through the generations. When they saw Giants in peril, their decision of aid was made without hesitation for all the sur-jheherrin throughout the Sarangrave.
How were they transformed so?
I'd like to think that, in daring to help Foamfollower and Covenant, they took the first steps on a journey of self-discovery. They found what was always within themselves. When children came to them, it was not because of a miracle manifested by the Pure One, but because they had managed to transform themselves, harness their own destinies. When they believed in themselves, they became potent, and potent, they became prolific.
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- ussusimiel
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What a post!
Hi Wayfriend,
I know that this post is up here a while but I am new to the forum and I just wanted to say that your post made me register so I could express my gratitude for the generosity of your offering. It is exactly what I would hope to read in a scholarly yet vibrant book about the Chronicles. The kind of book that I would buy immediately if I saw it. A book by a scholar and a lover of Covenant and the Land.
This site is a beacon of light on the net. A necessary corrective to Ironic Mode. You do credit to yourself and all the rest who make this site what it is.
Hail Earthfriend!
I know that this post is up here a while but I am new to the forum and I just wanted to say that your post made me register so I could express my gratitude for the generosity of your offering. It is exactly what I would hope to read in a scholarly yet vibrant book about the Chronicles. The kind of book that I would buy immediately if I saw it. A book by a scholar and a lover of Covenant and the Land.
This site is a beacon of light on the net. A necessary corrective to Ironic Mode. You do credit to yourself and all the rest who make this site what it is.
Hail Earthfriend!
Re: What a post!
And thank you, ussusimiel, for posting and bringing this thread to my attention!ussusimiel wrote:Hi Wayfriend,
I know that this post is up here a while but I am new to the forum and I just wanted to say that your post made me register so I could express my gratitude for the generosity of your offering. It is exactly what I would hope to read in a scholarly yet vibrant book about the Chronicles. The kind of book that I would buy immediately if I saw it. A book by a scholar and a lover of Covenant and the Land.
This site is a beacon of light on the net. A necessary corrective to Ironic Mode. You do credit to yourself and all the rest who make this site what it is.
Hail Earthfriend!
all credit to Wayfriend for his essay. It's easily one of the best Covenant posts I've read on the Watch so far. Wayfriend, I believe I joined shortly after you went on hiatus. Come back, I want to meet you and discuss!
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- ussusimiel
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Yea, we there we shall meet, and exchange tales and laugh like Giants, and our thoughts shall run like the Ranyhyn, and we shall frolic like Wraiths, and become wise like Lords!ussusimiel wrote:You're welcome, Cambo, glad to be of service!
I'm new on the Watch and I hope to meet you on the plains of the threads and the slopes of the forum!
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- wayfriend
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(I wasn't sure which topic best served this post. Rape thread? Re-read thread? I chose to stick it here.)
If you have Epic Vision on your mind, as I do, when you reread the Chronicles, as I am now, there are lots of things small details that pop out at you in and shine in a new way.
And the rape of Lena now seems quite different to me now.
I came across these lines when it struck me.
Covenent was impotent when he first contracted his leprosy. Leprosy doesn't imply impotence. But as a leper, Donaldson considered him was the epitome of futility. Impotence is a reasonable symbol of this. A manifestation of the Ironic Mode.
However, in the Second Chronicles, we have a man who has mastered the lessons of the first Chronicles, a man who is effective in his own life, who has escaped the Ironic Mode. A man who is potent. Potent in spite of weakness by the intensity of his heart.
So, he is no longer impotent, even though his leprosy remains. His leprosy isn't his whole story. He was not a leper - not just a leper. Covenant has found a vision that has made him effective in his own life. Sexual potency is [again] a symbol of this. A "concrete manifestation" of this (if you would allow).
All well and good.
But now, let's go all the way back to Lord Foul's Bane, to the chapter entitled "Lena", where we find a Covenant who suddenly has lost his impotency.
The in-story explanation is that he was cured of his leprosy. But leprosy didn't cause his impotence directly. So we must also consider the semiotics. If impotency is the symbol of futility, then restoring potency is the symbol of escaping futility, of becoming powerful or at least effective.
But if that's the symbol, what is the denotatum?
At this early stage of the first Chronicles, Covenant hasn't yet learned anything, hasn't yet changed any course of his life. Despite Foul's monologuing, he believes he must be unimportant and powerless. (In fact, he thinks his dream is trying to destroy him by leading him to believe otherwise.)
On the other hand, he has come to the Land, and he has wild magic. He doesn't know it yet, but he has it. In fact, he has everything he needs to defeat Lord Foul quite literally at hand. He just needs to recognize that this is so.
So the lapse of his impotency must be a symbol or manifestation of wild magic, a power he is unaware he has, and which will take him a long time to learn how to use. He is, in fact, as Donaldson says, "bloody dangerous". Without experience or even awareness, he might do anything with his power. He's bound to hurt someone.
Lena.
Donaldson has spoken in the Gradual Interview about some of the reasons for Lena's rape. One of the reasons is to show Covenant's conflicted nature. "Covenant is demonstrably a man who "could go either way." And when the story begins, he is far more likely to go in Lord Foul's direction than in the Creator's."
But now I also see that there is another level to think about. His sudden potency is a symbol of wild magic. His lack of control over his lust is a symbol of his inability to control wild magic. And the rape of Lena is a symbol of how dangerous wild magic is without control. Without a moral compass, wild magic can be a great cause of harm. Like a man who is suddenly no longer impotent, Covenant needs to figure out how to responsibly weild his power, because if he heedlessly follows his passions, people will be hurt.
If you have Epic Vision on your mind, as I do, when you reread the Chronicles, as I am now, there are lots of things small details that pop out at you in and shine in a new way.
And the rape of Lena now seems quite different to me now.
I came across these lines when it struck me.
Throughout the Chronicles, power is equated to effectiveness, and both are the antithesis of futility. When I read those lines, what struck me was this: what's more futile than impotence?In [i]The One Tree[/i] was wrote:"Can you believe it? I used to be impotent. Back when I thought leprosy was the whole story."
Covenent was impotent when he first contracted his leprosy. Leprosy doesn't imply impotence. But as a leper, Donaldson considered him was the epitome of futility. Impotence is a reasonable symbol of this. A manifestation of the Ironic Mode.
However, in the Second Chronicles, we have a man who has mastered the lessons of the first Chronicles, a man who is effective in his own life, who has escaped the Ironic Mode. A man who is potent. Potent in spite of weakness by the intensity of his heart.
So, he is no longer impotent, even though his leprosy remains. His leprosy isn't his whole story. He was not a leper - not just a leper. Covenant has found a vision that has made him effective in his own life. Sexual potency is [again] a symbol of this. A "concrete manifestation" of this (if you would allow).
All well and good.
But now, let's go all the way back to Lord Foul's Bane, to the chapter entitled "Lena", where we find a Covenant who suddenly has lost his impotency.
The in-story explanation is that he was cured of his leprosy. But leprosy didn't cause his impotence directly. So we must also consider the semiotics. If impotency is the symbol of futility, then restoring potency is the symbol of escaping futility, of becoming powerful or at least effective.
But if that's the symbol, what is the denotatum?
At this early stage of the first Chronicles, Covenant hasn't yet learned anything, hasn't yet changed any course of his life. Despite Foul's monologuing, he believes he must be unimportant and powerless. (In fact, he thinks his dream is trying to destroy him by leading him to believe otherwise.)
On the other hand, he has come to the Land, and he has wild magic. He doesn't know it yet, but he has it. In fact, he has everything he needs to defeat Lord Foul quite literally at hand. He just needs to recognize that this is so.
So the lapse of his impotency must be a symbol or manifestation of wild magic, a power he is unaware he has, and which will take him a long time to learn how to use. He is, in fact, as Donaldson says, "bloody dangerous". Without experience or even awareness, he might do anything with his power. He's bound to hurt someone.
Lena.
Donaldson has spoken in the Gradual Interview about some of the reasons for Lena's rape. One of the reasons is to show Covenant's conflicted nature. "Covenant is demonstrably a man who "could go either way." And when the story begins, he is far more likely to go in Lord Foul's direction than in the Creator's."
But now I also see that there is another level to think about. His sudden potency is a symbol of wild magic. His lack of control over his lust is a symbol of his inability to control wild magic. And the rape of Lena is a symbol of how dangerous wild magic is without control. Without a moral compass, wild magic can be a great cause of harm. Like a man who is suddenly no longer impotent, Covenant needs to figure out how to responsibly weild his power, because if he heedlessly follows his passions, people will be hurt.
Wild, white fire. An obvious allusion to wild magic. That makes sense to me now. Covenant is weilding his newly found power. In this case, destructively.In [i]Lord Foul's Bane[/i] was wrote:A moment later, he dropped the burden of his weight on her chest, and her loins were stabbed with a wild, white fire that broke her silence, made her scream.
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I agree that this is the proper thread for these insights, weaved as they are into the fabric of your Epic Vision interpretation of the Chrons.
Nicely done. Not sure how the "wild, white fire" phrasing escaped all of us for these many decades. Like an optical illusion, it is so clear once it is pointed out...
Nicely done. Not sure how the "wild, white fire" phrasing escaped all of us for these many decades. Like an optical illusion, it is so clear once it is pointed out...
Love prevails.
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Change is not a process for the impatient.
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A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon
Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
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Interesting insight, wayfriend.
u.
P.S. It's also cool to get a notification from the thread that inspired me to join the Watch*. Many thanks again to wayfriend for that!
*DISCLAIMER: wayfriend is on no way responsible for any perfidities that I have subsequently perpetrated on the Watch. Those have been all my own doing
u.
P.S. It's also cool to get a notification from the thread that inspired me to join the Watch*. Many thanks again to wayfriend for that!
*DISCLAIMER: wayfriend is on no way responsible for any perfidities that I have subsequently perpetrated on the Watch. Those have been all my own doing
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Tho' all the maps of blood and flesh
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
I've often wondered just what it is that I find so uplifting about the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Your essay has gone a long way to helping me figure that out.wayfriend wrote:The very first time I read the Chronicles, I found them very uplifting, and I would even go so far as to say that they helped me. At the time, I considered it a story about perseverance. Now I think I recognize that it's a story that communicates epic vision - that a man can be an effective passion, despite "the poverty of his life". And that this is where the uplift that I found came from, I now have come to see.
If other people have found the Chronicles to be uplifting, or would say that it changed their lives for the better, then I think we need to give Donaldson credit for some success.
Alcohol and depression have been part of my life. Thankfully I'm sober now and haven't picked up since 2005. I first read the first and second chronicles in the 90s when I was in my 20s and growing into my alcoholism. Then again in my 30s when it was full-blown and the third time in the late noughts a few years after getting sober through AA.
And now I've just finished the Last Chronicles for the first time and gone back to Lord Foul's Bane.
These books have accompanied me through the years and I've related to them differently each time. As I suppose has anyone that has read them multiple times.
This essay about Epic Vision and the Ironic Mode has gone a long way to helping me to understand why I find these books so uplifting. In my own small way, I've lifted myself out of "poverty" (addiction) and built a different life on a more spiritual path, a path of acceptance, a path of love.
And that leads me to what I find to be the most valuable and quotable part of the book, which is this:
You will not fail, however he may assail you. There is also love in the world..
That's the message I take and that I try to live my life by.
Yes thanks for sharing Cam.
My story was when I was a teenager I was a introvert and shy - both at extremely high levels. Already being at teen awkward stage and having those qualities was not a easy road. Most of my days were spent reading and wallowing in my self pity and inferiority complex. SRD books were some of the first to help plant the seeds that I could find a way out of that state of being. That I could step out of my current state of mind and find passion to do better and be better.
My story was when I was a teenager I was a introvert and shy - both at extremely high levels. Already being at teen awkward stage and having those qualities was not a easy road. Most of my days were spent reading and wallowing in my self pity and inferiority complex. SRD books were some of the first to help plant the seeds that I could find a way out of that state of being. That I could step out of my current state of mind and find passion to do better and be better.
Not every person is going to understand you and that's okay. They have a right to their opinion and you have every right to ignore it.
Fatal Musings: Epic Vision
For anyone looking to follow the link (which is broken) to Donaldson's short essay, you can find it here:
https://www.stephenrdonaldson.com/EpicFantasy.pdf
https://www.stephenrdonaldson.com/EpicFantasy.pdf
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Fatal Musings: Epic Vision
Thank you for the link, Barnetto! An entertaining essay.Barnetto wrote: ↑ For anyone looking to follow the link (which is broken) to Donaldson's short essay, you can find it here:
https://www.stephenrdonaldson.com/EpicFantasy.pdf
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Fatal Musings: Epic Vision
Wow, that essay was fantastic! Thanks. I like reading whatever SRD has to say.
It also had an unexpected and wonderful quick dive into Tolkien's works.
I think I'm going to give The Riddle-Master of Hed a read now as well.
And, as always, Donaldson used a phrase I had never heard of and had to look up: "de trop".![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
It also had an unexpected and wonderful quick dive into Tolkien's works.
I think I'm going to give The Riddle-Master of Hed a read now as well.
And, as always, Donaldson used a phrase I had never heard of and had to look up: "de trop".
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