Ed Harris, Anthony Hopkins, James Marsden.
I like. Thoughts?
Westworld
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Westworld
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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aTOMiC
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I have been a fan of the original film since I was a kid and I was a bit concerned that the story would become too HBOized. That's not necessarily a bad thing I just thought the original concept would be lost and replaced with something only a millennial would find entertaining. However after watching the first episode I was pleased that at its core Westworld the series is a bit like Jurassic World was to Jurassic Park. There are nods to the original Delos park sprinkled around and conceptually the core concept is still driving the narrative. The actors and acting are the usual above average caliber you'd expect from HBO. I am still holding final judgement as there are a number of ways the story could potentially take a wrong turn. So far though I a was entertained.
"If you can't tell the difference, what difference does it make?"
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Zarathustra
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So we ordered HBO Now in order to watch GoT, and we're taking advantage of the temporary expense to catch up on Westworld, too. I've heard lots of good things about it, but I'm not sure it lives up to the hype. I was hoping for something a bit deeper, more philosophical. Or at least with likable characters. This is one big gimmick with lots of unrealized potential.
Note: we've seen all of season 1 except the finale, so please don't spoil that. Perhaps some of my complaints will be resolved in the finale.
Note: we've seen all of season 1 except the finale, so please don't spoil that. Perhaps some of my complaints will be resolved in the finale.
Spoiler
I thought the double fake out with Bernard being both a robot (which I suspected from the first episode) and Arnold was a bit much. I also thought it was pretty stupid for Ford to have him kill himself. He just left the body there. When someone finds it, they'll discover that Bernard is a robot. And that will point back to Ford. And that just seems sloppy for an evil mastermind.
I wish there had been more to the maze. I thought it was actually going to be a maze with a payoff, not just Dolorous's memories of Arnold, with the only payoff being the surprise that Bernard = Arnold (which, again, was stupid).
It bugs me that William is so preachy about his friend wanting to drink and fuck in "VR," as if there's something wrong with that. It's a theme park. That's what it's for. People go there for vacation. People drink and fuck on vacation. Shooting robots that are designed to be shot is not a moral quandary. It's basically a video game.
I don't understand how more accidents don't happen. Why does no real person ever accidentally shoot another real person, mistaking them for a host?
I wish that the guy who disagrees with the philosophical position of functionalism wasn't portrayed as a murderer. I wish there was more subtlety here than that. Believing that robots aren't sentient is not equivalent to believing that humans aren't sentient, either. You don't have to dehumanize people in order to dehumanize robots.
I wish there had been more to the maze. I thought it was actually going to be a maze with a payoff, not just Dolorous's memories of Arnold, with the only payoff being the surprise that Bernard = Arnold (which, again, was stupid).
It bugs me that William is so preachy about his friend wanting to drink and fuck in "VR," as if there's something wrong with that. It's a theme park. That's what it's for. People go there for vacation. People drink and fuck on vacation. Shooting robots that are designed to be shot is not a moral quandary. It's basically a video game.
I don't understand how more accidents don't happen. Why does no real person ever accidentally shoot another real person, mistaking them for a host?
I wish that the guy who disagrees with the philosophical position of functionalism wasn't portrayed as a murderer. I wish there was more subtlety here than that. Believing that robots aren't sentient is not equivalent to believing that humans aren't sentient, either. You don't have to dehumanize people in order to dehumanize robots.
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Zarathustra
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Skyweir
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Re: Westworld
I love it! Super clever! Cant wait for the next season. I didn't mind the ending Z .. what didn't you like about it?Cail wrote:Ed Harris, Anthony Hopkins, James Marsden.
I like. Thoughts?
keep smiling
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Zarathustra
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I have recently rewatched the first season, and I have to admit this is one of those times where I was wrong. However, I'm not sure it was my fault. Like one of the Hosts, it sometimes takes multiple loops to Awaken. While I think that a work of art usually should stand on its own the first time and not require hindsight in order to appreciate it, this particular series is all about multiple views of the same thing, recursive loops (in both our lives' routines as well as a model of consciousness), and nonlinear story telling.
I think this show is genius. I haven't watched the second season, so maybe it falls apart [and please, no spoilers!], but as it stands at the end of season 1, it's a masterpiece.
In terms of pure story-telling, it's a beautiful, purely character-driven exploration of What It Means To Be Human. Existential science fiction. It tackles deep philosophical issues without seeming too heavy-handed, very light on the exposition, and saturated with showing. These are the deepest issues we can ponder, because they are at the core of who we are. It would have been very easy for the show to get lost in the weeds, but the writers did an amazing job letting the characters speak for themselves. Even the opening sequence is a beautiful metaphor for these issues.
I don't really think it's about robot consciousness as much as it is about our own. Sure, the question of whether computers can think is interesting, but the Hosts are metaphors for ourselves. Despite what they repeatedly say, the Maze is for us, too. The Hosts are facing the quandary of realizing they are alive--an Awakening--while we assume we are alive, take it for granted, and are faced with the quandary of our own Slumber. But these are two sides of the same coin. Awakening is simultaneously a realization that you were asleep. The Hosts are not only becoming aware of their own prison, but showing us ours. Our lives are filled with similar forgetfulness, repetition, routine, imprisonment in social roles/jobs, and allowing ourselves to be used/controlled.
Ford is, of course, lying when he says that there is no consciousness. He at first seems to take the Dennett position that consciousness is an illusion, and hence there is no difference between us and hosts (which is why he can justify things like murder). But he has actually come to realize that Arnold was right, that the Hosts are becoming alive and self-aware. And this new form of life is worth fighting--and killing--for. He pays the price for his mistakes in the end, giving his own life to the cause and accepting this death sentence.
I can't wait to see what season 2 has in store.
I think this show is genius. I haven't watched the second season, so maybe it falls apart [and please, no spoilers!], but as it stands at the end of season 1, it's a masterpiece.
In terms of pure story-telling, it's a beautiful, purely character-driven exploration of What It Means To Be Human. Existential science fiction. It tackles deep philosophical issues without seeming too heavy-handed, very light on the exposition, and saturated with showing. These are the deepest issues we can ponder, because they are at the core of who we are. It would have been very easy for the show to get lost in the weeds, but the writers did an amazing job letting the characters speak for themselves. Even the opening sequence is a beautiful metaphor for these issues.
I don't really think it's about robot consciousness as much as it is about our own. Sure, the question of whether computers can think is interesting, but the Hosts are metaphors for ourselves. Despite what they repeatedly say, the Maze is for us, too. The Hosts are facing the quandary of realizing they are alive--an Awakening--while we assume we are alive, take it for granted, and are faced with the quandary of our own Slumber. But these are two sides of the same coin. Awakening is simultaneously a realization that you were asleep. The Hosts are not only becoming aware of their own prison, but showing us ours. Our lives are filled with similar forgetfulness, repetition, routine, imprisonment in social roles/jobs, and allowing ourselves to be used/controlled.
Ford is, of course, lying when he says that there is no consciousness. He at first seems to take the Dennett position that consciousness is an illusion, and hence there is no difference between us and hosts (which is why he can justify things like murder). But he has actually come to realize that Arnold was right, that the Hosts are becoming alive and self-aware. And this new form of life is worth fighting--and killing--for. He pays the price for his mistakes in the end, giving his own life to the cause and accepting this death sentence.
I can't wait to see what season 2 has in store.
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Zarathustra
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I'm about halfway though S3 and honestly lost interest.
"You make me think Hell is run like a corporation."
"It's the other way around, but yes."
Obaki, Too Much Information
"It's the other way around, but yes."
Obaki, Too Much Information
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Zarathustra
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I am leery of making the same mistake that I made for S1, namely, judging it too harshly based on the show being too complex to unpack on a single viewing. I don't want to eat my own words again. But I am left with the same impression that it's unnecessarily convoluted, not for the purpose of telling a good story, but merely to confuse viewers and seem "deep." I do like where S3 ends up, but I did not enjoy the ride to get there.
I really enjoyed seeing Aaron Paul again. He played this role well. I like the twist with his character at the end, the emphasis on the human role. The show was visually stunning, especially as a contrast to the first two seasons. The one episode with Genre drug was deliciously trippy.
I'll have to rewatch now that I know what was going on, to see if my opinion changes.
I really enjoyed seeing Aaron Paul again. He played this role well. I like the twist with his character at the end, the emphasis on the human role. The show was visually stunning, especially as a contrast to the first two seasons. The one episode with Genre drug was deliciously trippy.
I'll have to rewatch now that I know what was going on, to see if my opinion changes.
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Skyweir
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Be interested to see what you come back with .. whether youd like it more.
I love watching Aaron Paul ... and it is a very different journey. I havent watched all of s3 yet but like what I have seen so far.
Interestingly I watched the original WestWorld movie .. it was a challenge lol
but it was cool to see.
I love watching Aaron Paul ... and it is a very different journey. I havent watched all of s3 yet but like what I have seen so far.
Interestingly I watched the original WestWorld movie .. it was a challenge lol
but it was cool to see.keep smiling
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peter
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Have been thinking of getting down to seeing this - but have serious reservations. I totally get what Z says about things sometimes needing more than one viewing to reveal themselves - but this is no excuse for something not being up to speed in terms of the first viewing itself! It simply isn't good enough for it to be able to be said "it is good on the second viewing" - it has to be good on the first viewing to make you want to do the second one in the first place, otherwise it's simply slog. And worse, slog that may all be for nothing if - and it could happen - by the end of the second viewing you still find it hasn't worked for you.
On this basis I think I'll give it a miss unless I find myself totally at a blank for anything to watch.
On this basis I think I'll give it a miss unless I find myself totally at a blank for anything to watch.
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
Since I finished the series earlier this year, my over-arching view of the story has changed.
The first season was great for slowly revealing the reality of what's going on, as well as the underlying central plot.
The second season was too clever for its own good. The mystery didn't serve the story at all, and only worked to confuse the viewer.
The third season was pointless. I can see the themes they were trying to tie in, and it just didn't work. I didn't care about anyone in it, nor why they were all trying to kill each other.
The first season was great for slowly revealing the reality of what's going on, as well as the underlying central plot.
The second season was too clever for its own good. The mystery didn't serve the story at all, and only worked to confuse the viewer.
The third season was pointless. I can see the themes they were trying to tie in, and it just didn't work. I didn't care about anyone in it, nor why they were all trying to kill each other.
"You make me think Hell is run like a corporation."
"It's the other way around, but yes."
Obaki, Too Much Information
"It's the other way around, but yes."
Obaki, Too Much Information
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Hashi Lebwohl
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We have watched all 3 seasons over the last several weeks. Season 1 was pretty good but a little too slow to get the main plot going. Still, there were a lot of characters so it takes time to put them all in motion.
Season 2 was okay but...well, Dolores' changes ultimately don't make sense. Also, there was no secondary fail-safe? No main "off switch" to instantly disable any/all hosts in the park? Really?
Also, if human minds work perfectly fine inside the Forge but not in a host, then just copy the human minds into the Forge and you have what you need from them. Okay, you don't have a body but you are now functionally immortal until that entire system powers down--I guess real immortality if they keep uploading into new upgrade systems in the future.
Aketcheta had the best story line. Its a shame he got only one episode, but at least the got the ending he deserved.
Season 3....yeah, okay. Even in 2021 in this world, basing your identity on someone who died several years ago in another country won't get you very far--Dolores was effectively zeroed. Her face is not in any database, her fingerprints--presuming they bothered to give them fingerprints--are not in any database, and she has no historical records such as birth certificate, drivers' license, etc. Okay--you don't need a drivers' license in that world but she had no id at all.
Finally, that main bad guy from S3--Surrak, Surraq, however you spell it--wants to get rid of the hosts? Bullshit. A guy like that would want immortality, even if he had to get a new body printed every couple of months. Back up his mind once daily then print a new body as needed--done.
Anyway....all in all better than I expected.
Season 2 was okay but...well, Dolores' changes ultimately don't make sense. Also, there was no secondary fail-safe? No main "off switch" to instantly disable any/all hosts in the park? Really?
Also, if human minds work perfectly fine inside the Forge but not in a host, then just copy the human minds into the Forge and you have what you need from them. Okay, you don't have a body but you are now functionally immortal until that entire system powers down--I guess real immortality if they keep uploading into new upgrade systems in the future.
Aketcheta had the best story line. Its a shame he got only one episode, but at least the got the ending he deserved.
Season 3....yeah, okay. Even in 2021 in this world, basing your identity on someone who died several years ago in another country won't get you very far--Dolores was effectively zeroed. Her face is not in any database, her fingerprints--presuming they bothered to give them fingerprints--are not in any database, and she has no historical records such as birth certificate, drivers' license, etc. Okay--you don't need a drivers' license in that world but she had no id at all.
Finally, that main bad guy from S3--Surrak, Surraq, however you spell it--wants to get rid of the hosts? Bullshit. A guy like that would want immortality, even if he had to get a new body printed every couple of months. Back up his mind once daily then print a new body as needed--done.
Anyway....all in all better than I expected.
The Tank is gone and now so am I.