Finished the First Chronicles

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High Lord Tolkien
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

samrw3 wrote: When I read the book it was from Covenant perspective at that stage. He had accident and clearly thought he was in dream/delusion, He felt for him impossible feelings and urges that in his real/normal existence should not and did not exist. So some beautiful woman is presented to him I took it as fantasy sex - yes twisted fantasy sex but fantasy sex nonetheless. If men have dream about some woman that don't know subjecting to their agressive advances do we convict them?

Where the story becomes more damning for Covenant is he knew it was wrong and the Lena was not willing participant. But I still find that to be extension of a dream state reaction.

Before you throw stones at me - think about for a bit and try to see if it makes some degree of sense.
No, I get you.
Great point about he didn't think it was real.
Sometimes I forget that the whole Unbeliever thing went through all three books.
In my opinion, Donaldson did a good job with it because, to me, the rape wasn't graphically described and wasn't there a hint of wildmagic being involved?
I always thought there was which made me think it added to what caused Lena's imbalance later but it was never specifically mentioned.
I assumed that was what made Elena so unbalanced too.

Also in the 70's and 80's I think a huge percentage of fantasy books had a rape scene in it.
It was like the publishers required it or something.
Weird.
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Post by wayfriend »

There were lots of factors leading to Covenant's action that night.

But the author tells us what was the first and foremost factor.

It wasn't about being in a dream. Believing you are in a dream and acting freely on your inclinations is a freedom, and a freedom makes you happy.
In [i]Lord Foul's Bane[/i] was written wrote:Covenant felt suddenly trapped, threatened. A pressure of darkness cramped his lungs; he could not seem to get enough air. A leper's claustrophobia was on him, a leper's fear of crowds, of unpredictable behavior. Berek! he panted with mordant intensity. These people wanted him to be a hero. With a stiff jerk of repudiation, he swung away from the gathering, went stalking in high dudgeon between the houses as if the Stonedownors had dealt him a mortal insult.

Berek! His chest heaved at the thought. Wild magic! It was ridiculous. Did not these people know he was a leper? Nothing could be less possible for him than the kind of heroism they saw in Berek Halfhand.

But Lord Foul had said, He intends you to be my final foe. He chose you to destroy me.

In stark dismay, he glimpsed the end toward which the path of the dream might be leading him; he saw himself drawn ineluctably into a confrontation with the Despiser.

He was trapped. Of course he could not play the hero in some dream war. He could not forget himself that much; forgetfulness was suicide. Yet he could not escape this dream without passing through it, could not return to reality without awakening. He knew what would happen to him if he stood still and tried to stay sane. Already, only this far from the lights of the gathering, he felt dark night beating toward him, circling on broad wings out of the sky at his head.

He lurched to a halt, stumbled to lean against a wall, caught his forehead in his hands.

I can't - he panted. All his hopes that this Land might conjure away his impotence, heal his sore heart somehow, fell into ashes.

Can't go on.

Can't stop.

What's happening to me?
This is a man having a breakdown. He is suffering from traumatic stress. He feels like he's going crazy, dark batwings of pressure and fear surround him, keep him from thinking clearly.

Faced with trauma, people tend to respond in one of four ways: fight, flight, freeze, or faun.
"Are you married?"

At that, he whirled to face her as if she had stabbed him in the back. Under the hot distress of his eyes and his bared teeth, she faltered, lowered her eyes and turned her head away. Seeing her uncertainty, he felt that his face had betrayed him again. He had not willed the snarling contortion of his features. He wanted to contain himself, not give way like this. not in front of her. Yet she aggravated his distress more than anything else he had encountered.
In the night, Lena tries to comfort him. But she does not understand Covenant's complex problems. Her actions, instead, provoke him. She keeps trying to help him, and he keeps being provoked - she's pushing the wrong buttons.

Until, finally, finally breaks.
Covenant's back clenched abruptly still, and he said with preternatural quietness, "Are you trying to drive me crazy?"

His ominous tone startled her, chilled her. For an instant, her courage stumbled; she felt the river and the ravine closing around her like the jaws of a trap. Then Covenant whirled and struck her a stinging slap across the face.
Covenant chose fight.

It wasn't about being in a dream. Nothing was indulged - nothing about his assault on Lena was about sexual pleasure.

Covenant doesn't think it's a dream - he thinks it's a nightmare. It is a complex and perfectly tailored form of torment. He cannot figure a way out, and he can see quite vividly that not getting out will be fatal to him.

This is an existential crisis for him.

The fight response to traumatic stress is to attack the cause of your pain. That's what Covenant is doing, in so far as Lena is the present embodiment of his torment. Are you trying to drive me crazy? Attacking the cause of your pain isn't logical, isn't practical in any sense, it is a primal instinctual response. Make it go away.

Only after he has struck Lena does Covenant begin to consider rape. His passions are awoken, and he is not yet able to control his regenerated libido. And Rape is about power, not lust - unthinkingly, he is trying to achieve some sort of power from among his many helplessnesses. His passion and his anger are easily diverted from one form of assault to another.

He may indeed feel a license from being in a dream, but the author does not say so AFAICT.

The more astute observation is that Covenant, having been helpless and impotent, lacks any kind of restraint or self-awareness when an opportunity for power presents itself.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Yes, if ever there was a case of temporary insanity, this would be it.

Not that the other characters could know that. Not that I would know that if it was my daughter who was raped. The reader certainly has an advantage that could allow for more forgiveness.
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Fist and Faith wrote:Yes, if ever there was a case of temporary insanity, this would be it. …

[…]
Ya think?

Seems to me that, if that were unequivocally the case, Covenant would never have needed to learn to forgive himself.

Rather, he would've been like, "I'm at peace with what happened, cuz it really wasn't Me."

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Post by Fist and Faith »

"unequivocally the case"? Is that how things like this work? Everybody always feels the same about any incident?

What he feels about that moment, and himself, might not be what any number of others feel about it and him.
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Fist and Faith wrote:"unequivocally the case"? …

[…]
Yes. I don't see how the overarching narrative can be coherently read without an element of culpability, no matter how minimal. Moral agency and self-ownership seems to be elemental in SRD, and unequivocal insanity (temporary or not) would — in contrast to simple "mitigating circumstances" — apparently obliterate that selfsame ownership.

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Post by Fist and Faith »

Well, that's true. But that's from Covenant's pov. He felt the way he did about it, and that's part of the story. But I can still see the shock, fear, and turmoil he was in. More clearly than he could, I'm sure. More clearly than any of the characters could. My feelings about him are based on very different information. And on less emotion. Lena wasn't my daughter or the girl I wanted to marry, after all.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Also, let's not forget the Elena/TC "thing".
I mean, that was fucking weird.

Where was SRD going with that one?
Rape: done
Incest: ....almost, maybe, not sure
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Post by wayfriend »

Wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
Fist and Faith wrote:Yes, if ever there was a case of temporary insanity, this would be it. …[…]
Seems to me that, if that were unequivocally the case, Covenant would never have needed to learn to forgive himself.
I disagree.

I think that's very much the hardest kind of thing to learn to forgive yourself for. Especially for a man as straitly principled as Covenant.

That being said, I would not choose to use the word "insane" here. There are too many kinds of insanity, and it's easy to apply the wrong one.

Emotional reactions to trauma include "fear, anxiety, panic, and shock, difficulty believing in what has happened, feeling detached and confused, feeling numb, not wanting to connect with others, becoming withdrawn from those around you". And "traumatic stress can cause aggression".

I think Donaldson hit the nail on the head here. This is a reaction to trauma. Which is not insanity, but it is mental unhealth.
High Lord Tolkien wrote:Also, let's not forget the Elena/TC "thing".
I mean, that was fucking weird.

Where was SRD going with that one?
My personal opinion was that SRD was not going towards incest, but going towards Elena's craziness, spiced with some The One notions.

Elena was the one that put the moves on him. Partly because she would do anything to save the Land, partly because she is half baked, and partly because she is bold. Covenant responded a bit, because it hasn't really sunk in that she's his daughter, but when he remembers that intellectually, he pulls away.
In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:Yes, Elena's incestuous feelings for Covenant were deliberate on my part. I thought when I wrote "The Illearth War", and still believe, that such ill-conceived attraction/hero worship both dramatized her essential imbalance and foreshadowed her tragic misunderstanding of Kevin.

(10/12/2004)

Yes, there is "a not-so-fatherly aspect to Covenant's feelings for Elena." How could he possibly feel like her father? They haven't had one iota of a father-daughter relationship. And when he returns to the Land in "The Illearth War," he's actually younger than she is. And he still has all those messy reborn sensations to deal with.

(11/18/2004)

Covenant and Elena are both in "impossible" situations, both literally and emotionally. Covenant has sex for the first time in, like, forever, and a few weeks later he's presented with a 40something daughter? Without going through any of the normal experiences of watching a child grow up? In a place that he doesn't even believe is real? Considering that the most powerful aphrodisiac in life is feeling desired by someone else? And that nothing about being a leper has prepared him to handle such situations? How could he possibly have an *appropriate* reaction? What could conceivably constitute an *appropriate* reaction in a situation like that? As far as I'm concerned, the fact that he doesn't act on his feelings is a triumphant display of his growing moral character.

In one sense, Elena faces the same dilemma. Nothing that she's ever experienced has made Covenant real to her AS A FATHER. But in another sense, she stands on the opposite side of the problem. Almost EVerything that she's ever experienced has made him real to her AS A HERO, a figure of power, an enormously desirable source of redemption. Triock is the father-figure in Elena's life. Covenant is (in a manner of speaking) the figment of Lena's--and therefore of Elena's--most romantic fantasies.

(10/26/2005)
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Half-baked. lol
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Fist and Faith wrote:Well, that's true. But that's from Covenant's pov. He felt the way he did about it, and that's part of the story. But I can still see the shock, fear, and turmoil he was in. More clearly than he could, I'm sure. More clearly than any of the characters could. My feelings about him are based on very different information. And on less emotion. Lena wasn't my daughter or the girl I wanted to marry, after all.
I'm trackin', bro.

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wayfriend wrote:
Wosbald wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:Yes, if ever there was a case of temporary insanity, this would be it. …[…]
Seems to me that, if that were unequivocally the case, Covenant would never have needed to learn to forgive himself.
I disagree.

I think that's very much the hardest kind of thing to learn to forgive yourself for. Especially for a man as straitly principled as Covenant.

[…]

… This is a reaction to trauma. Which is not insanity, but it is mental unhealth.

[…]
Well, yeah. "Mental unhealth" is what I was gettin' at with "mitigating circumstances".

I think the disconnect here is between whether Covenant's need of forgiveness is considered as being 1) a psychological complex or 2) an ineluctable metaphysical law.

The above two don't wholly intersect. The character's internal turmoil (or lack of it) is not indissociable from whether the character needs repentance/forgiveness in order to resolve the author's metanarrative arc (i.e. in order to redeem the character).

This apparent disconnect is prolly on me for not following the lineaments of the convo closely enuf before chiming-in.

FTR, I'd agree that the psychological angle is a worthy line of textual interpretation, though it's not one upon which I'm particularly inclined or qualified to comment.

Carry on.

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Post by Fist and Faith »

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Half-baked. lol
Right? :lol:

Also an excellent Ben & Jerry's flavor.
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Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
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Post by wayfriend »

I am not tracking you, Wos.
Which I mention only because it makes me sad that I cannot explore this with you.

In my opinion, Covenant is never redeemed for raping Lena. Not in his own eyes, not in the authors, and not in any absolute sense either.

What he does achieve, after a lot of angst, is to learn how to live with himself. You can say he learns to forgive himself, but only if you mean that he learns how to not hate himself for what he had done. He does not learn to forgive himself in the sense that he realizes he is not to blame.

This is what he learns: He raped Lena. That's bad. But that's not the only thing he is. He can also do good things, and deserve good things.

I don't see how that fits in with your questions, however. We're probably talking along different dimensions.
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
wayfriend wrote:[…]

In my opinion, Covenant is never redeemed for raping Lena. Not in his own eyes, not in the authors, and not in any absolute sense either.

[…]
That's an interesting take. Cuz the rest of your post …
wayfriend wrote:[…]

What he does achieve, after a lot of angst, is to learn how to live with himself. You can say he learns to forgive himself, but only if you mean that he learns how to not hate himself for what he had done. He does not learn to forgive himself in the sense that he realizes he is not to blame.

This is what he learns: He raped Lena. That's bad. But that's not the only thing he is. He can also do good things, and deserve good things.

[…]


… pretty much exemplifies what I've always taken as SRD's peculiar thematic iteration of Redemption.

"Six of one" and all that jazz?

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Post by wayfriend »

Wosbald wrote:… pretty much exemplifies what I've always taken as SRD's peculiar thematic iteration of Redemption.
In The Last Dark, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:"So maybe blaming ourselves is a waste of time. Maybe we should just admit that everybody goes wrong. Everybody does damage. That's what being human enough to make mistakes means. And if that's what being human means, then there's really only one question we have to answer. Is making mistakes all it means?

"If it isn't, then everything counts. Resurrecting me and waking up the Worm. Making love together and killing Cavewights. Hell and blood, Linden! I let my own daughter be sacrificed against She Who Must Not Be Named. And I didn't stop there. I went right up to the most pitiful woman I've ever known and stuck a knife in her chest. If you think I don't feel bad about things like that, you haven't been paying attention. But if everything counts, then guilt is no reason to stop trying for something better."
Not "guilt doesn't matter."
Not "don't feel guilty".
Not "guilt can be paid for".
But "guilt is human; keep trying anyway".
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
wayfriend wrote:
Wosbald wrote:… pretty much exemplifies what I've always taken as SRD's peculiar thematic iteration of Redemption.
In The Last Dark, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:"So maybe blaming ourselves is a waste of time. Maybe we should just admit that everybody goes wrong. Everybody does damage. That's what being human enough to make mistakes means. And if that's what being human means, then there's really only one question we have to answer. Is making mistakes all it means?

"If it isn't, then everything counts. Resurrecting me and waking up the Worm. Making love together and killing Cavewights. Hell and blood, Linden! I let my own daughter be sacrificed against She Who Must Not Be Named. And I didn't stop there. I went right up to the most pitiful woman I've ever known and stuck a knife in her chest. If you think I don't feel bad about things like that, you haven't been paying attention. But if everything counts, then guilt is no reason to stop trying for something better."
Not "guilt doesn't matter."
Not "don't feel guilty".
Not "guilt can be paid for".
But "guilt is human; keep trying anyway".
Seems like we're on the same page.

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