Forge of Darkness

Malazan and other stuff.

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I'm Murrin
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Post by I'm Murrin »

It's just... all the same. It's good, but you're often getting the same small range of character types, the same humour, the same approach to the story. Erikson should branch out more, rather than sticking to one narrow genre and one universe.

I feel like I know exactly what to expect with Erikson, and while I would enjoy it... there's not enough time in the world to read everything, and I want to read new things more.
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Post by lucimay »

I guess that's why I read it. I know exactly what I am getting. plus I love the characters. same with king. same reason I smoke cigarettes prolly.
heh :lol:

I actually do read a lot of different types of stuff so i'm not always with my face in an erikson book. i read plenty of stuff between erikson books and i'm just not tired of the world yet. plus i can't WAIT for the karsa books! :D

the tiste books, while beautiful and dark are sort of just my erikson until the karsa books come out. heh. :D
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Post by Avatar »

Yeah, the Karsa books I'm looking forward to.

And also like you, I like the universe. I want there to be more stories. I would read more DT stories. I would even read more WoT stories. It's the reason I like epic stuff...a whole new universe to wander round in.

--A
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Post by Avatar »

So, I'm busy re-reading this in preparation for reading book 2, (Fall of Light) but since I'm playing The Witcher 3, it's slow going.

That said, slow going is actually helping...enjoying the first 200 pages more than I did last time.

I think a slow pace suits an Andii tale...they don't do anything in a hurry. :D

--A
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Post by Fist and Faith »

:lol:

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Post by Avatar »

Nah, this is really slow...2 weeks to read 224 pages so far. But I have put probably 100 hours into my game in that time. :D

--A
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Post by Avatar »

Still plodding through this in odd minutes not spent gaming...you know, while I eat and stuff.

Damn, I don't remember it being this brutal...

--A
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Post by Avatar »

Finally getting close to the end...didn't game last night in the interests of finishing it, but still about 150 pages to go.

This book is actually hell of an important in terms the lore. It's just before Hood's war. It's the start of the Holds and the tiles.

It's the start (I assume) of the Liosan. It's the foundation for the forging of Dragnipur.

It's so much backstory it's hard to take in. These last 100 odd pages are really bringing it back to me.

--A
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Post by Holsety »

Avatar wrote:Finally getting close to the end...didn't game last night in the interests of finishing it, but still about 150 pages to go.

This book is actually hell of an important in terms the lore. It's just before Hood's war. It's the start of the Holds and the tiles.

It's the start (I assume) of the Liosan. It's the foundation for the forging of Dragnipur.

It's so much backstory it's hard to take in. These last 100 odd pages are really bringing it back to me.

--A
Lorewise, I'm actually rather disappointed with the kharkhanas series. Take the holds and tiles for instance - K'rul has also done his blood sacrifice thing, so it appears that the warrens are forming around the same time that the errant is involved with the holds and tiles. I could have a misunderstanding of what's going on, and haven't finished fall of light, but it seems like warrens and holds are forming at roughly the same time. That's a big change from the malazan books, where warrens where explicitly described as coming some time after holds. I think that Erikson's idea of hold/warren history has changed over time, especially since characters used to refer to the founding race warrens as "elder warrens" and never as holds, even those who used those realms. I get the feeling that "elder warrens" is still a viable concept (it seems like some holds evolved and some didn't?) but it didn't seem like the concept of holds existed earlier on. It seems like a more distinct line was drawn around letheras time.

The dragnipur thing is also an issue. Dragnipur was supposed to be substantially elder even in comparison to k'rul - in a statement from k'rul himself in gotm. But mother dark appears to be relatively recent in comparison to the azathanai/elder gods.

It feels like a mess. The way that characters who were around at the time discussed these events, it felt like they happened over a great deal of time. Now, Erikson is suddenly showing the andii together in the same realm as proto imass, jheck, napan (I think), jaghut, toblakai and k'chain. I haven't read this far, but I heard there's an indication that Kallor's empire already exists, which means that humans already exist. And, Kallor's empire is supposed to come after Dessembelackis's, isn't it? Yet Dessembelackis's empire is supposed to come after the imass ritual, which has not yet happened. I need to read and find out if the indications of Kallor are accurate, I guess.

We also remember that scabandari and silchas thought of the tiste as "invaders" and thought of the jaghut, k'chain, etc as being in a different realm. Yet the tiste are completely aware of the jaghut in this book, and they are only now beginning to split into andii/liosan/edur. When central characters who should have some general idea of what world they were in and what nearby races existed are on the record in prior books contradicting this kind of stuff, it's a pretty big issue.

I think the forge of darkness prologue actually contained an in-universe character saying he didn't give a shit about history and timelines, so I think Erikson is basically acknowledging that the lore isn't coherent at this point.

I kind of don't care, because I like the actual stories within this book, so it's cool with me. I'm not really looking for reliable insight into the malazan book of the fallen lore in some respects, but it's interesting to see Erikson's take on things that he barely touched on in the malazan series (orfantal, hish tulla, scabandari and silchas's relationship, osserc, etc etc etc).

Generally, I find myself liking the tiste focused parts the most.
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Post by Avatar »

I sorta thought the holds came out of K'rul's blood first, like the warrens did later, but maybe you have a point about "elder" 'warrens' and I didn't pick up anything (yet) about Kallor or Dessembelackis already being around.

The end of Forge pretty much makes clear that somebody is recounting all this to Fisher, but not sure who...I sorta felt it might be blind Gallan, but on the other hand I thought he was dead.

--A

--A
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Post by Holsety »

Avatar wrote:I sorta thought the holds came out of K'rul's blood first, like the warrens did later, but maybe you have a point about "elder" 'warrens' and I didn't pick up anything (yet) about Kallor or Dessembelackis already being around.

The end of Forge pretty much makes clear that somebody is recounting all this to Fisher, but not sure who...I sorta felt it might be blind Gallan, but on the other hand I thought he was dead.

--A

--A
I'm not sure I have a full handle on the warrens. In the malazan books, it seemed like people thought that k'rul's blood birthed the warrens. I'm thinking that this will probably be what will come of further events in the books, because we also see a number of eleint entering into the plot, and it seems that bonds between the warrens and the dragons are crucial. It's quite possible that a suitable explanation for this will render my arguments completely moot - or maybe they are incorrect already and I simply don't have a firm grasp of all the lore.
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Post by Avatar »

Well, I think we've established that nobody does, not least the actual authors.

I'm sorta liking the whole idea that the Elder Gods are (were) these Azathanai, although even they don't seem to know much or anything about the Houses of the Azath.

Also, I'm getting the feeling that both holds and warrens came from K'rul. The holds appear to be Errastes' attempt to impose his own "flavour" on K'rul's blood.

Or at least, that's how I'm interpreting recent comments in Fall of Light.

--A
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Post by Iolanthe »

I've just re-listened to Forge of Darkness and at present listening to Fall of Light. I can't wait for Walk in Shadow as I really want to find out how the parentage of the three women, Menandore, Sukul Enkardu and Sheltatha Lore is resolved. Also, where Osserc fits into all this. I tried to draw up family trees but there is so much confusion about these in the Malazan books that I gave up! Forgive the possible wrong spellings, I don't have the actual books so can't look them up!
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