Nyle

"Reflect" on Stephen Donaldson's other epic fantasy

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Nyle

Post by Cord Hurn »

A cruel irony of Nyle's character arc during the Mordant's Need story: he starts out feeling a lot of self-pity with little warrant, only to become a truly pitiable victim. :cry:
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Post by Cord Hurn »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I've been going through the dissections of TMOHD and while reading Torrent's post here: https://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/v ... a430#98550 had an epiphany.

Why did Nyle feel wronged enough to betray his king? We know about how Joyce gave his attention to Geraden and overlooked Nyle. That he despised him a bit. It's gone over at length at the end of AMRT. But there is another reason for Nyle to hate Joyce that I haven't noticed till now that is maybe even more important.

In chapter 19, Elega says
”I consider him a friend. And I respect him. He has a-a seriousness of mind?-no, a seriousness of desire which his brothers apparently lack. It is inconceivable, for instance, that he would spend Geraden’s years trying and failing to become an imager. And it also is inconceivable that he would learn Artagel’s skills and then refuse to use them-as Artagel has refused-to rise in command of the King’s guards. There was a time,” she admitted, “when if he had expressed an interest in my hand I would have taken him as seriously as he took me”
Now on the face of it this was just Nyle lacking guts to ask for her hand but that doesn't really fit what we know about these two. They're both determined and will do what they believe in. If they both loved each other and she was prepared to marry him why did nothing happen?

As the story progresses we learn more and more details about the augury Havelock cast about Joyce and which Joyce faithfully follows throughout the story to see its promises realized. There is of course the image of Geraden as an important imager, the first point of contention with Nyle but there is another image: Elega spreading her legs for prince Kragen in his tent, if I remember Havelock's description of it correctly. (an image that might have rather a lot to do with the way prince Kragen was humiliated when he came as the Alend ambassador to Joyce.)

To achieve a future where this image is realized Elega mustn't marry Nyle. We know Joyce betrothed her initially to Geraden which he must have been sure would have come to nothing. We should assume he dissueded Nyle and Elega from getting together in other ways.

So, though Nyle may not have been consciously aware of it, King Joyce sabotaged his love life for the sake of a prophecy. After everything he's been through in the story it's doubtful whether he will ever find happiness in that department.

This observation expressed by shadowbinding shoe, that King Joyse worked to sabotage any close relationship between Nyle and Elega, is a clever one. Its believable of Joyse to do so, working from Havelock's long-term plan and what is known from Havelock's augury. Of course he'd try to throw Elega and Kragen together, and work to make sure Elega remained unattached to any other man before that opportunity arose.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

Cord Hurn wrote:
Merlanthe wrote:As already noted his experiences have made him cautious and hopefully a little wiser but I think being an outsider is a big influence on his being an acceptable contender for the position of alend monarch.

I can definitely see the various alend factions being more willing to accept an outsider who has no previous ties and therefore no bias in his decision making as ruler than a man who has past ties to one of the factions and may favor that faction in future decisions. It also gives the current alend monarch a candidate he can mentor into the role. I'm sure by the time Nyle is handed the reins he will have been thoroughly drilled on everything margonal thinks is necessary to do a good job and probably be quite familiar with the various alend factions and they with him.

From a realistic point of view what is left in mordant for Nyle? He has seemingly spent his life floundering round not knowing what to do with himself and seemingly no one has given him any guidance or direction to follow. In many ways I see him as a milder version of Teresa as they seem to share the same problem, that being a lack of meaning or purpose in their life and an inability to see any for themselves.

Just because Joyce makes a public show of embracing him and forgiving him isn't going to magically change how Nyle lacks direction and meaning to his life or how people will perceive him after everything that's happened. There really isn't anything for him in mordant beside his family who love him but seem unable to give him the help he needs. By becoming a candidate for the alend throne he is able to make a fresh start and find a meaning and purpose for his life.
These are all very good insights, Merlanthe! It makes Nyle's story resolution seem more logical and satisfying. 8)

Still strikes me as a great post from Merlanthe, and an apt summation of Nyle's situation at story's end.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

I made a post on the Norge thread about what Norge shows about Terisa 'Doll Faced' Morgan. What about Nyle?

Nyle is the unloved boy who despite everyone's low expectations and in the face of their discouragements tries to fight for Mordant in his own way. He doesn't go back home when told. Like her, he leaves his family and form connections with people they disapprove of. Like her, he's got low self esteem. They both fall for Eremis' machinations and are the objects of his sadism. Is he another twisted mirror to Terisa Donaldson placed in the story? Terisa chose Geraden while Nyle chose Kragen and they were both right in end.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Terisa chose Geraden while Nyle chose Kragen and they were both right in end.
So they were. But clearly Nyle did a lot more suffering.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Damn, I have to reread these books. I can't remember who Nyle is. :lol:
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Post by wayfriend »

Nyle is the angry young man enraged by his lack of standing among those he cares about. Maybe he "sided with Kragen", but it was less out of wisdom and more out of a need to act - and act up, and act out. It was singularly unwise - no, Kragen wasn't right - and he squandered his birthright (respect as the son of the Domne) as the cost.

(Kragen wasn't "right" - he wanted to depose Joyce and replace him with (at best) a puppet ruler. Was he fooled by Joyce? yes. Was he rightly worried about protecting the Congery? sure. But his methods were just violence with high-sounding reasoning. Under exactly the same conditions, Geraden - and Terisa, and Lebbick, and the Tor, and the Fayle, and Quillon, and Havelock - all made the wise choice.)
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

What was the Lesson of Nyle then?

Terisa gains insights or exemplars of Ideas from every character in the tale. What did Nyle represent to Terisa?
High Lord Tolkien wrote:Damn, I have to reread these books. I can't remember who Nyle is. :lol:
For shame, HLT! :-x :P
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Post by Cord Hurn »

wayfriend wrote:Nyle is the angry young man enraged by his lack of standing among those he cares about. Maybe he "sided with Kragen", but it was less out of wisdom and more out of a need to act - and act up, and act out. It was singularly unwise - no, Kragen wasn't right - and he squandered his birthright (respect as the son of the Domne) as the cost.

(Kragen wasn't "right" - he wanted to depose Joyce and replace him with (at best) a puppet ruler. Was he fooled by Joyce? yes. Was he rightly worried about protecting the Congery? sure. But his methods were just violence with high-sounding reasoning. Under exactly the same conditions, Geraden - and Terisa, and Lebbick, and the Tor, and the Fayle, and Quillon, and Havelock - all made the wise choice.)
Agree with most of what you're saying here, Way, but wish to add that Nyle was ultimately right in that Prince Kragen's heart was in the right place in wanting to protect his kingdom from the depredations of renegade Imagery.

So even if the Prince's initial plan could be considered "wrong" because he was fooled by Joyse's passivity, Nyle's desire for forging some kind of alliance between Alend and Mordant was still correct, still "spot-on". Cadwal's army simply could not have been defeated without such an alliance happening, as I see it.
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Post by wayfriend »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Terisa gains insights or exemplars of Ideas from every character in the tale. What did Nyle represent to Terisa?
I would offer up a couple of ideas.

First, he represents disloyalty. Or, more specifically, reason over loyalty. Mind without heart.

Or maybe he represents action without wisdom. That rash action leads down the wrong path.

He's more of a foil for Geraden than for Terisa. He makes Geraden look good to Terisa. Which shows Terisa that she should follow his lead.

But I really feel like Nyle's main purpose was as a McGuffin. His rash action and disloyal reason led to his becoming a hostage. And that drove most of the plot of book two.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

He wasn't that important to the plot I feel. He wants to be relevant but he's a sidenote throughout. He wanted to help Elega and Kragen in their machinations but in the end he did nothing there. Eremis used him to ruin Geraden's name but Eremis is crafty. If Nyle wasn't available he'd find another way. When Terisa finds he's alive in Eremis mansion they don't go back there because of him. All 3 of them needed to go there to win the war. He's just the cherry on the cream.

He showcase what happens if Eremis wins on the personal level. He's Terisa if she doesn't escape Eremis . He's Geraden if Gilbur was his master long term. He's everyone when Eremis wins at last.
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Post by IrrationalSanity »

I'm inclined to agree with Wayfriend. I wouldn't want to use the term McGuffin, as it seems disrespectful, but in practice that seems to be his purpose. People take action because of him, but he doesn't really do anything himself.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

shadowbindingshoe wrote:He showcase what happens if Eremis wins on the personal level. He's Terisa if she doesn't escape Eremis. He's Geraden if Gilbur was his master long term. He's everyone when Eremis wins at last.
Well put! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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