Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 5 & 6

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Zal Remmos
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Planting Banes

Post by Zal Remmos »

pitchwife wrote:

I don't remember who was responsible for planting banes in the earth, I think it is mentioned in the tale of creation, wasn't it Foul?

-pitch
"Then he understood or remembered. Perhaps he found Despite itself beside him, misguiding his hand. Or perhaps he saw the harm in himself. It does not matter. He became outraged with grief and torn pride. In his fury he wrestled with Despite, either within him or without, and in his fury he cast the Despiser down, out of the infinity of the cosmos onto the Earth"

So I guess that means either Foul or the Creator himself did...
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

My take about Atiaran was always that Trell was not her true love. He loved her and wanted to marry her but she wanted instead to become one of the lords and felt confined in Mithil Stonedown. I think she was on the way to achieving her goal when she had an affair with someone in the Loresraat. Whoever he was didn't want to marry her and so she became bitter with the whole Lords' institution and returned to her home and married Trell instead.

This give rise to the possibility that Lena is not Trell's daughter, paralleling Elena's life (with Triok as the stepfather this time). But of course it's not necessary for a story of the spurned Atiaran, it's just a possible extra layer.

I certainly don't believe the connection between Covenant and this family is incidental. They seem idyllic on the surface, but there's hidden depths here. Lena's immediate clinging to Covenant the passing outsider imply that her home life isn't as great as all that, and the darkness surrounding Trell's theurgies hint at the unhappiness and anger he hides in his heart.
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Post by Relayer »

Huh? I've never seen anything to suggest this interpretation... Everything I remember reading said that Atiaran just wasn't able to step into her power and because she didn't feel worthy, she gave up and came home.

I will agree that her true passion might have been to become a Lord (Lena of course feels the same way: "I don't want to marry a cattleherd, I want to experience bigger things") but nowhere do I see anything about affairs or unhappy home life. Lena "clings" to Covenant because he represents this bigger, more noble world.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

well, the fact that Attiaran managed to figure out how and then actually did summon someone from our world means to me that she was powerful enough.

Why did she leave the Loresraat? Why is she bitter and suspicious about them? I think there's a quote in Andalain (in LFB) where she says learning about LF frightened her too badly but does it adequately explain everything about her?
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Post by thefirst »

Atirian left her studies because she felt inadequate to the task, she always lived with a certain amount of shame because of it, and while she loved Trell, his skill at his own craft, humbled her.
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Post by wayfriend »

I agree that Atiaran had ambitions larger than the Mithil, at least originally. But I don't think these ambitions extended to falsifying her relationship with her husband and family. She loved Trell. And Lena was hers.

She left the Loresraat because she got scared of her enemy. She probably loved the idea of learning Law and lore, but found that the darker aspects exceeded her capacities.

It didn't take *too* much power to summon someone. Remember, Triock and Foamfollower did it with a mere lomillialor rod.

Furthermore, I belive that Atiaran was tapping into the same power that later Trell and Mhoram discovered, the power that energized the Ritual of Desecration, the power of unrestrained passion brought on by her despair.
In [u]The Illearth War[/u] was wrote:"Later, I learned what had happened. A young student at the Loresraat had an inspiration about a piece of the Second Ward he was working on. All this was about five years ago. He thought he had figured out how to get help for the Land - how to summon you, actually. He wanted to try it, but the Lorewardens' refused to let him. Too dangerous. They took his idea to study, and sent to Revelstone for a Lord to help them decide how to test his theory.

"Well, he didn't want to wait. He left the Loresraat. and climbed a few miles up into the western hills of Trothgard until he thought he was far enough away to work in peace. Then he started the ritual. Somehow, the Lorewardens felt the power he was using, and went after him. But they were too late. He succeeded - in a manner of speaking. When he was done, I was lying there on the grass, and he - He had burned himself to death. Some of the Lorewardens think he caught the fire that should have killed me."
The similarities between Atiaran's form of suicide and the Ritual of Desecration are there to see.
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Post by Relayer »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Why did she leave the Loresraat? Why is she bitter and suspicious about them? I think there's a quote in Andalain (in LFB) where she says learning about LF frightened her too badly but does it adequately explain everything about her?
Guess I don't see it that way. Learning in detail about an immortal being whose power and malice are essentially limitless might scare any of us... It's like learning about yourself, wanting to grow and become a better person, but then discovering the shadow side of our ego. Most people have a lot of trouble facing that.

I see her bitterness as directed at herself, not the Loresraat.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

Furthermore, I belive that Atiaran was tapping into the same power that later Trell and Mhoram discovered, the power that energized the Ritual of Desecration, the power of unrestrained passion brought on by her despair.
This is the point that I was going to make, but Wayfriend said it better.
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Post by thefirst »

I didn't mean to imply that she didn't love Trell and Lena, but she and Lena were always so reverent towards Trell's skill that it makes me believe that to her, it must have, at least to some extent, caused the inadequacies she felt, to resurface.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

Concerning this first appearance of Atiaran, I'm struck by the fact that she was already conflicted and tormented before Thomas Covenant ever came into her life.
In Chapter 6 of [i]Lord Fouls Bane[/i] was wrote:He found that another woman had joined Lena. As he returned, he heard Lena say, "He says he knows nothing of us." Then the other woman looked at him, and guessed immediately that she was Atiaran. The leaf pattern of the shoulders of her long brown robe seemed to be a kind of family emblem; he did not need such hints to see the long familiarity in the way the older woman touched Lena's shoulder, or the similarities in their posture. But where Lena was fresh and slim of line, full of unbroken newness, Atiaran appeared complex, almost self-contradictory. Her soft surface, her full figure, she carried as if it were a hindrance to the hard strength of experience within her, as if she lived with her body on the basis of an old and difficult truce. And her face bore the signs of that truce; her forehead seemed prematurely lined and her deep spacious eyes appeared to open inward on a weary battleground of doubts and uneasy reconciliations. Looking at her over the stone table, Covenant received a double impression of a frowning concern--the result of knowing and fearing more than other people realized--and an absent beauty that would rekindle in her face if only she would smile.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

In Chapter 6 of [i]Lord Foul's Bane[/i] was wrote:After a brief hesitation, the older woman touched her heart and raised her hand toward Covenant as Trell had done. "Hail, guest, and welcome. I am Atiaran Trell-mate. I have spoken with Trell, and with Lena my daughter--you need no introduction to me, Thomas Covenant. Be comfortable in our home."

Remembering his manners--and his new determination--Covenant responded, "I'm honored."

Atiaran bowed slightly. "Accepting that which is offered honors the giver. And courtesy is always welcome." Then she seemed to hesitate again, uncertain of how to proceed. Covenant watched the return of old conflicts to her eyes, thinking that gaze would have an extraordinary power if it were not so inward. But she reached her decision soon, and said, "It is not the custom of our people to worry a guest with hard questions before eating. But the food is not ready"--she glanced at Lena--"and you are strange to me, Thomas Covenant, strange and disquieting. I would talk with you if I may, while Lena prepares what food we have. You seem to bear a need that should not wait."

Covenant shrugged noncommittally. He felt a twinge of anxiety at the thought of her questions, and braced himself to try to answer them without losing his new balance.

In the pause, Lena began moving around the room. She went to the shelves to get plates and bowls for the table, and prepared some dishes on a slab of stone heated from underneath by a tray of graveling. She turned her eyes toward Covenant often as she moved, but he did not always notice. Atiaran compelled his attention.

At first, she murmured uncertainly, "I hardly know where to begin. It has been so long, and I learned so little of what the Lords know. But what I have must be enough. No one here can take my place." She straightened her shoulders. "May I see your hands?"

Remembering Lena's initial reaction to him, Covenant held up his right hand.

Atiaran moved around the table until she was close enough to touch him, but did not. Instead, she searched his face. "Halfhand. It is as Trell said. And some say that Berek Earthfriend, Heartthew and Lord-Fatherer, will return to the Land when there is need. Do you know these things?"

Covenant answered gruffly, "No."

Still looking into his face, Atiaran said, "Your other hand?"

Puzzled, he raised his left. She dropped her eyes to it.

When she saw it, she gasped, then bit her lip and stepped back. For an instant, she seemed inexplicably terrified. But she mastered herself, and asked with only a low tremble in her voice, "What metal is that ring?"

"What? This?" Her reaction startled Covenant, and in his surprise he gaped at a complicated memory of Joan saying, With this ring I thee wed, and the old ocher-robed beggar replying, Be true, be true. Darkness threatened him. He heard himself answer as if he were someone else, someone who had nothing to do with leprosy and divorce, "It's white gold."

Atiaran groaned, clamped her hands over her temples as if she were in pain. But again she brought herself under control, and a bleak courage came into her eyes. "I alone," she said, "I alone in Mithil Stonedown know the meaning of this. Even Trell has not this knowledge. And I know too little. Answer, Thomas Covenant--is it true?"

I should've thrown it away, he muttered bitterly. A leper's got no right to be sentimental.
From the first time I met her in this scene, I found myself feeling that Atiaran seemed more real to me than anyone we have met in the Land so far, for her complex personality reminded me of people I've known in life. Drool Rockworm, Lord Foul, Lena, and Trell, at this point in the story seemed to have simple personalities compared to Atiaran:

Her soft surface, her full figure, she carried as if it were a hindrance to the hard strength of experience within her, as if she lived with her body on the basis of an old and difficult truce. And her face bore the signs of that truce; her forehead seemed prematurely lined and her deep spacious eyes appeared to open inward on a weary battleground of doubts and uneasy reconciliations.

Covenant watched the return of old conflicts to her eyes, thinking that gaze would have an extraordinary power if it were not so inward.

But again she brought herself under control, and a bleak courage came into her eyes.
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Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 5 & 6

Post by Cord Hurn »

I like the song that Lena first sings, because of the hope it contains.
The second melody Lena tries disturbs him as it reminds him of a poem that he feels defines his despair as a leper. He has trouble enjoying the moment as soon as he hears it, as if his experience in the Land is mocking his limitations imposed by leprosy in our world.
In chapter 5 of [i]Lord Foul's Bane[/i] was wrote:He was asleep before he hit the grass.

When he began to drift slowly awake, the first thing that he became conscious of was Lena's firm thighs pillowing his head.

Gradually, he grew aware of other things--the tree shade bedizened with glints of declining sunlight, the aroma of pine, the wind murmuring, the grass thickly cradling his body, the sound of a tune, the irregular tingling that came and went from his palms like an atavism--but the warmth of his cheek on Lena's lap seemed more important. For the time, his sole desire was to clasp Lena in his arms and bury his face in her thighs. He resisted it by listening to her song.

In a soft and somehow naive tone, she sang:

Something there is in beauty
which grows in the soul of the beholder
like a flower:
fragile-
for many are the blights
which may waste
the beauty
or the beholder--
and imperishable--
for the beauty may die,
or the beholder may die,
or the world may die,
but the soul in which the flower grows survives.

Her voice folded him in a comfortable spell which he did not want to end. After a pause full of the scent of pine and the whispering breeze, he said softly, "I like that."

"Do you? I am glad. It was made by Tomal the Craftmaster, for the dance when he wed Imoiran Moiran-daughter. But oft-times the beauty of a song is in the singing, and I am no singer. It may be that tonight Atiaran my mother will sing for the Stonedown. Then you will hear a real song."

Covenant gave no answer. He lay still, only wishing to nestle in his pillow for as long as he could. The tingling in his palms seemed to urge him to embrace
Lena, and he lay still, enjoying the desire and wondering where he would find the courage.

Then she began to sing again. The tune sounded familiar, and behind it he heard the rumor of dark wings. Suddenly he realized that it was very much like the tune that went with "Golden Boy."

He had been walking down the sidewalk toward the offices of the phone company--the Bell Telephone Company; that name was written in gilt letters on the door-to pay his bill in person.

He jerked off Lena's lap, jumped to his feet. A mist of violence dimmed his vision. "What song is that?" he demanded thickly. .
Startled, Lena answered, "No song. I was only trying to make a melody. Is it wrong?"

The tone of her voice steadied him--she sounded so abandoned, so made forlorn by his quick anger. Words failed him, and the mist passed. No business, he thought. I've got no business taking it out on her. Extending his hands, he helped her to her feet. He tried to smile, but his stiff face could only grimace. "Where do we go now?"

Slowly the hurt faded from her eyes. "You are strange, Thomas Covenant," she said.

Wryly, he replied, "I didn't know it was this bad."

For a moment, they stood gazing into each other's eyes. Then she surprised him by blushing and dropping his hands. There was a new excitement in her voice as she said, "We will go to the Stonedown. You will amaze my mother and father." Gaily, she turned and ran away down the valley.

She was lithe and light and graceful as she ran, and Covenant watched her, musing on the strange new feelings that moved in him. He had an unexpected sense that this Land might offer him some spell with which he could conjure away his impotence, some rebirth to which he could cling even after he regained consciousness, after the Land and all its insane implications faded into the miasma of half-remembered dreams.

Such hope did not require that the Land be real, physically actual and independent of his own unconscious, uncontrolled dream-weaving. No, leprosy was an incurable disease, and if he did not die from his accident, he would have to live with that fact. But a dream might heal other afflictions. It might. He set off after Lena with a swing in his stride and eagerness in his veins.

The sun was down far enough in the sky to leave the lower half of the valley in shadow. Ahead of him, he could see Lena beckoning, and he followed the stream toward her, enjoying the spring of the turf under his feet as he walked. He felt somehow taller than before, as if the hurtloam had done more to him than simply heal his cuts and scrapes. Nearing Lena, he seemed to see parts of her for the first time-the delicacy of her ears when her hair swung behind them-the way the soft fabric of her shift hung on her breasts and hips-her slim waist. The sight of her made the tingling in his palms grow stronger.

She smiled at him, then led the way along the stream and out of the valley. They moved down a crooked file between sheer walls of rock which climbed above them until the narrow slit of the sky was hundreds of feet away. The trail was rocky, and Covenant had to watch his feet constantly to keep his balance.

The effort made the file seem long, but within a couple hundred yards he and Lena came to a crevice that ascended to the right, away from the stream. They climbed into and along the crevice.

Soon it leveled, then sloped gradually downward for a long way, but it bent enough so that Covenant could not see where he was headed.

At last, the crevice took one more turn and ended, leaving Lena and Covenant on the mountainside high above the river valley.

They were facing due west into the declining sun. The river came out of the mountains to their left, and flowed away into the plains on their right. There was a branch of the mountain range across the valley, but it soon shrank into the plains to the north.

"Here is the Mithil," said Lena. "And there is Mithil Stonedown." Covenant saw a tiny knot of huts north of him on the east side of the river. "It is not a great distance," Lena went on, "but the path travels up the valley and then back along the river. The sun will be gone when we reach our Stonedown. Come."
Such hope did not require that the Land be real, physically actual and independent of his own unconscious, uncontrolled dream-weaving. No, leprosy was an incurable disease, and if he did not die from his accident, he would have to live with that fact. But a dream might heal other afflictions. It might. He set off after Lena with a swing in his stride and eagerness in his veins. This is the most optimism we have yet seen from Covenant in this story. He anticipates more healing is coming his way.

I didn't know it was this bad. Cryptic comment.

Even though Kevin's Watch is to the north of Mithil Stonedown, I note the path from it seems to loop around and come to Mithil Stonedown from the town's southern boundary.

I tend to picture Mithil Stonedown much like I picture groups of pueblos I see made of stone here in the southwestern United States, buildings that can be centuries old.
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Re: Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 5 & 6

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Cord Hurn wrote:I didn't know it was this bad. Cryptic comment.
I understood what he meant immediately. And I think Lena, if she doesn't understand it immediately, intuits the intent. "You will amaze my mother and father." Gaily. I feel certain she catches on to the humor.

- - - - -

She was lithe and light and graceful as she ran, and Covenant watched her, musing on the strange new feelings that moved in him. He had an unexpected sense that this Land might offer him some spell with which he could conjure away his impotence. [...] A dream might heal other afflictions. It might. He set off after Lena with a swing in his stride and eagerness in his veins.

That, there, was the beginning of a whole lot of everything.

The sight of her made the tingling in his palms grow stronger.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

Then she began to sing again. The tune sounded familiar, and behind it he heard the rumor of dark wings. Suddenly he realized that it was very much like the tune that went with "Golden Boy."

He had been walking down the sidewalk toward the offices of the phone company--the Bell Telephone Company; that name was written in gilt letters on the door-to pay his bill in person.

He jerked off Lena's lap, jumped to his feet. A mist of violence dimmed his vision. "What song is that?" he demanded thickly. .
Startled, Lena answered, "No song. I was only trying to make a melody. Is it wrong?"

The tone of her voice steadied him--she sounded so abandoned, so made forlorn by his quick anger. Words failed him, and the mist passed. No business, he thought. I've got no business taking it out on her. Extending his hands, he helped her to her feet. He tried to smile, but his stiff face could only grimace. "Where do we go now?"

Slowly the hurt faded from her eyes. "You are strange, Thomas Covenant," she said.

Wryly, he replied, "I didn't know it was this bad."

For a moment, they stood gazing into each other's eyes. Then she surprised him by blushing and dropping his hands. There was a new excitement in her voice as she said, "We will go to the Stonedown. You will amaze my mother and father." Gaily, she turned and ran away down the valley.
Covenant didn't know his strangeness was this bad? There is irony in this, no doubt, that after Lena states he is strange Covenant then makes a strange statement.
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Post by wayfriend »

Cord Hurn wrote:There is irony in this, no doubt, that after Lena states he is strange Covenant then makes a strange statement.
Covenant sees that Lena was startled by his reaction, and then perplexed by his lack of explanation for it, and then confused by his change of subject. In short, he sees that he is not making any sense to her.

When Lena offers, "You are strange," he accepts this as an apt name for how he must appear. Of course she would think he is strange - he has been doing a really bad job of making sense.

But this is tinged with a deep sadness, sadness that his years of solitude and loneliness have left him with poor communication skills. In her comment, he hears the culmination of his being an outcast.

So he doesn't respond by explaining. He is still who he is. Instead he deflects, with a humorous, cynical jibe at himself, which at least offers to accept the blame for what just happened.

"I didn't know it was this bad." I didn't know it looked this bad. A line which every leper, every sick man shunned by society, thinks about saying.

But she doesn't understand that, either. Fortunately, she lets it drop, because she is who she is. Ever polite, she picks up his offered topic, and explains things to him.
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Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 5 & 6

Post by Cord Hurn »

wayfriend wrote:But this is tinged with a deep sadness, sadness that his years of solitude and loneliness have left him with poor communication skills. In her comment, he hears the culmination of his being an outcast.

And now, way, I thank you for patiently explaining it to me. It's a strong emotional reminder of his state of mind at this point, that feeling that he has been forcibly "cut adrift" from other people. Good post! :)
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Post by samrw3 »

It has been too long since I have read the book. But I am pretty sure at this point Lena has discovered that he wields white gold. She is expecting this grand heroic figure that is even played up even more in her girlish imaginiations. He has just been thrust to totally unfamiliar situation bringing up more emotions of being outcast, foreign and seeking to dive inwardly to go through his leper routines.

So this also one reason they are strange to each other at this point they approach who he is at different points of the spectrum. [possible savior type figure///leper outcast//inwardly protective figure]
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Re: Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 5 & 6

Post by wayfriend »

Cord Hurn wrote:It's a strong emotional reminder of his state of mind at this point
I think that you found a great passage that reminds us how much a good author can pack into a few dozen sentences.
samrw3 wrote:But I am pretty sure at this point Lena has discovered that he wields white gold.
I don't think anyone recognizes the white gold until Atiaran does.
In [i]Lord Foul's Bane[/i] was wrote:When she saw it, she gasped, and bit her lip and stepped back. For an instant, she seemed inexplicably terrified. But she mastered herself, and asked with only a low tremble in her voice, "What metal is that ring?"

"What? This?" Her reaction startled Covenant, and in his surprise he gaped at a complicated memory of Joan saying, With this ring 1 thee wed, and the old ocher-robed beggar replying, Be true, be true. Darkness threatened him. He heard himself answer as if he were someone else, someone who had nothing to do with leprosy and divorce, "It's white gold."

Atiaran groaned, clamped her hands over her temples as if she were in pain. But again she brought herself under control, and a bleak courage came into her eyes. "I alone," she said, "I alone in Mithil Stonedown know the meaning of this. Even Trell has not this knowledge. And I know too little. Answer, Thomas Covenant - is it true?"
According to Atiaran, no one else could have.

Bot otherwise I agree with your comments.
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Post by samrw3 »

Yipes its been too long since I read the books.

I would not want to face you in Covenant Trivia game wayfriend lol.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

samrw3 wrote:Yipes its been too long since I read the books.

I would not want to face you in Covenant Trivia game wayfriend lol.
True. Way knows the Chronicles quite well.
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