Changing Perspectives On Gender.

[Fist and Faith]

In other words, can you assure me that if a woman is born who is stronger than other woman, she would not be allowed to compete in sports involving strength?

How do you mean "strength"? Are men's speed records for running, swimming, bicycling lower then women's records because of strength? Or did you mean certain things that are primarily upper body, like weightlifting and boxing? Although swimming is a lot more upper body than legs.

[wayfriend]

It doesn't matter in this case.

The question is, would you rule anyone else could not be on a sports team because of their genes? If it's about degree, is there any degree in which a natural born woman would be banned? Or is it only for transgenders?

I read now that Obi-Wan Nihilo says "Of course not". It's only for transgenders. Which logically implies that this idea is not ACTUALLY about genes or fairness, it's all about being transgender. Which is why I find it appalling.

Meanwhile, no one opines that human rights are more important than sports.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

My statement had nothing to do with transgenders, and I feel your statement is intentionally inflammatory. Men's sports are for men, women's sports are for women. A trans woman is a biological man.

So I've put the question to you several times, what's your solution?

[SoulBiter]

Since this topic about the changing perspectives of gender, I dont see how we can discuss transgender people and how that impacts other parts of life without the discussion being about trangenders.

On the topic of the fairness of having trans people competing in sports we have to look at whether its fair or unfair because of biology. I dont know how to make that fair and allow someone to compete in a physically demanding sport on the women's team if they are biologically male. I am open to suggestions.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

SB, sports are segregated by sex, not gender, which is among other things a social construct and not biology. So when it comes to transgender people and sports, the biological equation is the same.

[Skyweir]

That is rarely ever going to present as an issue in boxing (the extreme sport example) ~ as boxing competitors are weight classed for that very reason.

Then of course the age distinctions and amateur v professional standings.

Such matters are pretty well managed by the sports industry ~ being their billywhack n all.

[Skyweir]

These seem to be strawmen and logical fallacy arguments.

None of which impedes the right of a transgender women or men to legal protections that all sexes enjoy.

Transgender men and women have existed as long as humans have existed and from the evidence amd science it is purely genetic.

And few trans actually suffer from gender dysphoria … that’s a mental health element used as transphobic pushback against their sexual reality.

[SoulBiter]

I don't see anyone saying that transgender men and women should not enjoy legal protections that everyone enjoy and in fact it seems there is a consensus that we agree on. But now that we are here in this moment in time we cant ignore the very fact that these people are biologically a different sex and because of that they have physical advantages over the sex they have transitioned to. This tends to show up in physical sports. What is your answer to this? Because its an issue that will need to be addressed as we move forward.

We also have not figured out what the right thing to do with things like public locker rooms. Here in Ohio there was a case recently at the YMCA where a transwoman who had not had the surgery was openly walking around the women's locker room with her male body parts hanging out. Two young girls complained and were told to get over it, that they (the transwoman had every right to do so. There is a legal case on this working its way through the courts. I will never agree that this is correct behavior and so far the courts agree. Granted that this might be the exception but its always the exceptions that are the most difficult to iron out and the most difficult to do AND to maintain the rights of others.

And few trans actually suffer from gender dysphoria … that’s a mental health element used as transphobic pushback against their sexual reality.

The above is interesting and I am not sure how true, but if someone does not suffer from gender dysphoria and they go around dressing as someone from the other sex and pretending to be that, then they are playing dress up. Their reality isnt that they think they are in the wrong body, they just want to dress as a woman and be treated as female. I also cant imagine that anyone would have the surgery unless they actually thought they had gender dysphoria. Could it happen? Yes. Has it happened? Possibly, maybe probably. But that raises bigger issues as society figures this out.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

There is nothing genetic about gender. Nothing.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn ... r-identity

https://www.snexplores.org/article/gend ... n-disagree

I don't see anyone saying that transgender men and women should not enjoy legal protections that everyone enjoy and in fact it seems there is a consensus that we agree on. But now that we are here in this moment in time we cant ignore the very fact that these people are biologically a different sex and because of that they have physical advantages over the sex they have transitioned to. This tends to show up in physical sports. What is your answer to this? Because it's an issue that will need to be addressed as we move forward.

Yes, I'm not aware of anyone here making an argument that trans people shouldn't have legal protections.

IWe also have not figured out what the right thing to do with things like public locker rooms. Here in Ohio there was a case recently at the YMCA where a transwoman who had to had the surgery was openly walking around the women's locker room with her male body parts hanging out. Two young girls complained and were told to get over it, that they (the transwoman had every right to do so. There is a legal case on this working its way through the courts. I will never agree that this is correct behavior and so far the courts agree. Granted that this might be the exception but it's always the exceptions that are the most difficult to iron out and the most difficult to do AND to maintain the rights of others.

The simple answer is that trans women are not women. Pre-op, they have no business being in women's spaces like locker rooms. Post-op, I find it difficult to say that they shouldn't be in women's spaces. Our culture is hung up on genitalia, so we're going to figure out how this works moving forward.

I

And few trans actually suffer from gender dysphoria … that’s a mental health element used as transphobic pushback against their sexual reality.

The above is interesting and I am not sure how true, but if someone does not suffer from gender dysphoria and they go around dressing as someone from the other sex and pretending to be that, then they are playing dress up. Their reality isnt that they think they are in the wrong body, they just want to dress as a woman and be treated as female. I also cant imagine that anyone would have the surgery unless they actually thought they had gender dysphoria. Could it happen? Yes. Has it happened? Possibly, maybe probably. But that raises bigger issues as society figures this out.

Well.....

https://www.advocate.com/commentary/201 ... a-be-trans

Notice this is in stark contrast to homosexuality, which 30 years ago was innate, and not a, "lifestyle choice". The above article is interesting, because it makes a very clear statement that some people are trans because that's what they want to be, or that they want to make a statement about gender.

[wayfriend]

There is nothing genetic about gender. Nothing.

You're kidding, right? You don't know about X's and Y''s? If you exclude someone for being born as a male, it's a genetic distinction.

Yes, I'm not aware of anyone here making an argument that trans people shouldn't have legal protections.

Denying them access to a sports team is in fact denying them their legal rights. Yes, you're opinion is that it is not, but other's opinion is that it is.

The simple answer is that trans women are not women.

That's not an argument, that's re-stating an entrenched position and asking for the whole thing to be re-argued as if everyone's hard work had never happened.

This discussion is now involving too much propane-based illumination. My inclination to participate has been soundly and roundly diminished by this.

[Skyweir]

The issue is whether or not they deserve equal protection under the law.

Despite answering in the affirmative, absolutely, issues like regarding transgender as equal to non-transgender seems problematic.

That’s a good question SB and I’m not sure I know the answer to it but to say that if transgender is genetically determined which the research indicates, then they may be anatomical differences pre v post transition & pre v post hormone therapy ~ but those different states aren’t all going to be an advantage.

And how often does this show up in sports? The transgender population is less than 1% of the American population ~ so what % transgender become sports focussed? To any degree that presents a problem?

Trans are not that common and yet have attracted a great deal of attention and opposition for a condition they were born with:

For years state lawmakers have pushed legislation attempting to shut trans people out of public spaces.

In 2020, lawmakers zeroed in on sports and introduced 20 bills seeking to ban trans people from participating in athletics.


These statewide efforts have been supported through a coordinated campaign led by anti-LGBTQ groups that have long worked to attack our communities.

It’s a myth that trans athletes possess an unfair advantage, according to this myth busting article on transgender in sports.

Trans athletes vary in athletic ability just like cisgender athletes.

“One high jumper could be taller and have longer legs than another, but the other could have perfect form, and then do better,” explains Andraya Yearwood, a student track athlete and ACLU client.

“One sprinter could have parents who spend so much money on personal training for their child, which in turn, would cause that child to run faster,” she adds.

In Connecticut, where cisgender girl runners have tried to block Andraya from participating in the sport she loves, the very same cis girls who have claimed that trans athletes have an “unfair” advantage have consistently performed as well as or better than transgender competitors.

I linked an article on this a few pages ago but basically stated this:

Gender nonconformity is not the same thing as gender dysphoria and does not always lead to dysphoria or distress.

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights ... s-debunked

I agree it’s problematic but a problem that needs solving. Walking around naked could be simply remedied by modesty requirements. Then a pre-surgical trans woman could use the facilities without risking offending other bathroom users.

The thing is ~ many trans are not advantaged by being trans ~ in fact many face stigma, reprisals, violence and abuse.

Women and girls who are trans face discrimination and violence that makes it difficult to even stay in school.

According to the U.S. Trans Survey, 22 percent of trans women who were perceived as trans in school were harassed so badly they had to leave school because of it.

Another 10 percent were kicked out of school. The idea that women and girls have an advantage because they are trans ignores the actual conditions of their lives.

[Skyweir]

For the last two decades, anti-LGBTQ politicians have attempted to sow disinformation about LGBTQ+ people’s rights to score cheap political points with their base.

Transgender and non-binary people have been the target of many of these attacks, especially since the 2015 state legislative sessions.

Then, so-called bathroom bills were a major focus and politicians lied about threats to women and girls’ safety that never materialized.

Today, trans and non-binary youth are the target of these attacks, with baseless arguments about sports participation and misinformationm about affirming healthcare access.

There is a lot of disinformation and misinformation about transgender children, youth and adults.

https://apnews.com/article/lawmakers-u ... e8c41042e7

Legislators in more than 20 states have introduced bills this year that would ban transgender girls from competing on girls’ sports teams in public high schools.

Yet in almost every case, sponsors cannot cite a single instance in their own state or region where such participation has caused problems.

[SoulBiter]

Good posts all!

I have learned quite a bit in the last few pages of posts and links. Its been beneficial to have a discussion that for many is not just difficult, but in some cases can cause a "hot mic" response.

[Fist and Faith]

And how often does this show up in sports? The transgender population is less than 1% of the American population ~ so what % transgender become sports focussed? To any degree that presents a problem?

I don't believe we know the answer yet. If the small minority of trans women hold all the titles and records, I would say that's strong evidence that the decades they lived before hormone therapy, when higher testosterone lead to stronger bones and muscles, does, indeed, give them the same advantage over women that is responsible for men's shorts and women's sports being separate in the first place. But it's too soon to know if that will happen. The great success of the few trans women already competing could be coincidental.

I agree it’s problematic but a problem that needs solving. Walking around naked could be simply remedied by modesty requirements. Then a pre-surgical trans woman could use the facilities without risking offending other bathroom users.

What of women who don't feel comfortable undressing in a locker room when someone who has a penis, even if it's covered, is in there with them? Why do they have no rights in this?

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

There is nothing genetic about gender. Nothing.

You're kidding, right? You don't know about X's and Y''s? If you exclude someone for being born as a male, it's a genetic distinction.

You're kidding, right? You don't know about X's and Y''s? If you exclude someone for being born as a male, it's a genetic distinction, which - as both of my posted links made clear - is sex, not gender.

[SoulBiter]

It seems that the Biden admin is proposing to extend Title IX to include Transgender people as well as other expansions. It will be interesting to see where this goes eventually since what actually ends up in Title IX may not include everything the President is proposing. Allowing the President to rule by fiat using Executive orders thus bypassing Congress should be reigned in. Of course as with many things Congress is quick to give up power, and slow to take it back.

[Skyweir]

But don’t we have a consensus that transgender members of society should be afforded equal rights ~ and the legal protections equal rights affords?

It’s almost moot that this would be needed at all ~ given equal rights legislation should apply to all.

[Skyweir]

And how often does this show up in sports? The transgender population is less than 1% of the American population ~ so what % transgender become sports focussed? To any degree that presents a problem?

I don't believe we know the answer yet. If the small minority of trans women hold all the titles and records, I would say that's strong evidence that the decades they lived before hormone therapy, when higher testosterone lead to stronger bones and muscles, does, indeed, give them the same advantage over women that is responsible for men's shorts and women's sports being separate in the first place. But it's too soon to know if that will happen. The great success of the few trans women already competing could be coincidental.

I agree it’s problematic but a problem that needs solving. Walking around naked could be simply remedied by modesty requirements. Then a pre-surgical trans woman could use the facilities without risking offending other bathroom users.

What of women who don't feel comfortable undressing in a locker room when someone who has a penis, even if it's covered, is in there with them? Why do they have no rights in this?

I don’t know Fist ~ these are the hard conversations that are needed with all affected parties.

I used to have great faith in public discourse & dialogue but it has to be well structured and moderated.

Probably greater public consultation could be beneficial, forums in which people can listen to each others needs and gain enhanced understanding of the issues.

As to changing in locker rooms ~ there are methods of managing privacy ~ privacy screens, modesty requirements, toilet blocks with doors.

There are methods of accomodating diversity and they aren’t prohibitively costly measures either.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

It seems that the Biden admin is proposing to extend Title IX to include Transgender people as well as other expansions. It will be interesting to see where this goes eventually since what actually ends up in Title IX may not include everything the President is proposing. Allowing the President to rule by fiat using Executive orders thus bypassing Congress should be reigned in. Of course as with many things Congress is quick to give up power, and slow to take it back.

The door was opened when the CRA of 1964 was butchered to include gays, lesbians, and trans people as a subset of, "sex". Never mind that gay and lesbian have nothing to do with trans, and that sexual orientation has nothing to do with biological sex.

Biden can't accomplish the gutting of Title IX via executive fiat, and SCOTUS will stop him from doing that.

[Skyweir]

It seems that the Biden admin is proposing to extend Title IX to include Transgender people as well as other expansions. It will be interesting to see where this goes eventually since what actually ends up in Title IX may not include everything the President is proposing. Allowing the President to rule by fiat using Executive orders thus bypassing Congress should be reigned in. Of course as with many things Congress is quick to give up power, and slow to take it back.

The door was opened when the CRA of 1964 was butchered to include gays, lesbians, and trans people as a subset of, "sex". Never mind that gay and lesbian have nothing to do with trans, and that sexual orientation has nothing to do with biological sex.

Biden can't accomplish the gutting of Title IX via executive fiat, and SCOTUS will stop him from doing that.

I thought there was consensus on equal rights and accompanying legal protections for trans (including LGB obviously cuz humans, right?). How is this not in line with that?