Beware the decline of Christianity

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Wosbald
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Fist and Faith wrote:I don't have any idea why you think I'm saying that. I'm saying no one should say, "I shouldn't let my faith influence my decisions when we're talking about ____." It doesn't matter what you fill in the blank with.
I know yer not saying that.

Yet, you are saying that it should've been deleted because … for no apparent reason that I can descry, other than something about "the point of the conversation." Something which reads like "Faith-then-politics is A-OK" but "Politics-then-faith is No-Can-Go" (a distinction without a difference for the integrated Catholic worldview).

But what else should the point of the convo be if it's not about Civility vs Incivility? If it's not about the choice between a measured concern for the Common Good vs a Scorched-Earth Culture-War Demonization?

Cuz my faith says that an Uncivilized War-Footing is an unfaithful stance — a prepolitical philosophico-theological position which can only translate into Injustice.
  • Civility is the condition, the sine qua non, of politics.
  • In contrast, War/Demonization is the breakdown or abeyance of politics.
None of this is partisan. Rather, its about nurturing/preserving the conditions which allow for the flourishing of political parties from the get-go.


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Fist and Faith
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Post by Fist and Faith »

I suspect you descry just fine. In the Close, Faith-then-ONLY-politics is No-Can-Go. Faith-then-many-topics-one-of-which-is-politics is A-OK. Wear's stated purpose is politics. As much of the article as your post quotes uses the words "politics" or "politicians" eleven times, while no other aspect of life is mentioned. The only type of response to your post we should expect is in regards to the political goals. There could be discussion on the general principle of faith informing the choices you make in all aspects of life, but you would have to ignore the focus of the article to do that. Which isn't a reasonable expectation, and, as it turns out, is not what happened.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
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Wosbald
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Fist and Faith wrote:I suspect you descry just fine. In the Close, Faith-then-ONLY-politics is No-Can-Go. Faith-then-many-topics-one-of-which-is-politics is A-OK. Wear's stated purpose is politics. As much of the article as your post quotes uses the words "politics" or "politicians" eleven times, while no other aspect of life is mentioned. The only type of response to your post we should expect is in regards to the political goals. There could be discussion on the general principle of faith informing the choices you make in all aspects of life, but you would have to ignore the focus of the article to do that. Which isn't a reasonable expectation, and, as it turns out, is not what happened.
Been workin' on how to say this.

You say that you "suspect" I descry just fine. But I don't. I don't understand. I'm not being obtuse.

Or to be more precise, I do understand your motivations (i.e. to keep the assholery so often characteristic of the Tank out of the Close). However, what I don't understand (or don't share) is your criteria.

For me (and for the FedGov's Johnson Amdt's condition for a Faith-group's tax-exempt status), the litmus for "undue politicality" is Partisanship. IOW, a Faith-group can inform the Nation's political discourse with the moral stakes involved in the issues, but cannot make the issues personal. They can say, for example, that a "true" Christian cannot uncritically embrace an ideology like 'ABCism', but they can't say that a "true" Christian can only vote for (or can never vote for) Candidate 'X' or Party 'Y'.

But the choice between Civility & Incivility — between the Common-Good & Culture-War Demonization, between Faithful Citizenship & Faithless Subversiveness — is not Partisan. The choice isn't between Left/Right or Lib/Con or Dem/Rep or Candidate 'A'/Candidate 'B'.

Rather, the choice is Philosophical (and/or Theological).

Now, that's not me being obtuse. That's just how I as a Catholic see things, which interestingly and tellingly, is also how our Civic culture, as exemplified in the FedGov's tax-code, has seen things.


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Post by Fist and Faith »

Not sure how I can be more clear, either. Whether a political topic is partisan or bipartisan, it is a political topic. Such a topic will, obviously, and by design, generate political responses. A topic intended to be bipartisan will not remain so. Political topics are prone to nastiness, nowhere moreso than at the Watch. That's why the Tank is gone. The Close will not be the Tank's replacement.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
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Wosbald
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Beware the decline of Christianity

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+

Despair over declining numbers shows lack of faith, pope tells religious
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Pope Francis blesses a nun during an audience at the Vatican with students and staff of the Claretian Institute of the Theology of Consecrated Life in Rome, Nov. 7, 2022. (CNS photo/Vatican Media)

Vatican City — Aging or declining membership should prompt members of religious orders to ask, "What do we do?" but not to despair, Pope Francis said.

Numbers are a real challenge, but "those who get caught up in pessimism put faith aside," the pope told students and staff of the Claretian Institute of the Theology of Consecrated Life in Rome and its affiliated programs in the Philippines, India, Colombia and Nigeria.

"It is the Lord of history who sustains us and invites us to faithfulness and fruitfulness," the pope insisted Nov. 7. "He takes care of his 'remnant,' looks with mercy and benevolence on his work, and continues to send his Holy Spirit."

Francis was helping the students and staff celebrate the 50th anniversary of the institute, which specializes in theology, spirituality and canon law specifically for and regarding religious orders.

"The more we approach religious life through the Word of God and the history and the creativity of the founders," the pope said, "the more we are able to live the future with hope."

The pope, a Jesuit, told the group that "religious life is understood only by what the Spirit does in each of the people called. There are those who focus too much on the external — the structures, the activities — and lose sight of the superabundance of grace that there is in the people and the communities."

With most religious orders having elderly members, Francis also used his speech to the institute to plead with religious communities to make sure that older members are not sent off to a home where they have no contact with younger members — "this is a crime," he said.

"The young need to spend time with the elderly, talk with them and the elderly members need to be with the young," he said.


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