Findail's true mission.....was it to become law incarnant

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Han-shan
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Post by Han-shan »

caamora,
I quite agree with your explanation of Troy's use of the ring, Covenant's needing to give permission, and all that. In fact, you and I were part of a discussion of this very thing in Dissecting a while back, until danlo pointed out that I was doing quite a bit of spoiling. :D

But I must direct you to reread the end of WGW regarding Linden. She did, indeed, use the white gold, and it was a necessary part of melding Vain and Findail, as well as healing the Land. Someone (I think it was me :)) said the same thing you did, and someone else pointed out these things.
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caamora
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Post by caamora »

Thank you for clearing that up, Han. I could not remember her using the white gold. I will indeed have to reread it. :)
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Post by wayfriend »

... meanwhile, Findail [remember Findail? This is a story about Findail] :D

I really can't buy into the idea that the other Elohim are so worried about Findail's fate.

They don't really strike me as a very sympathetic bunch, even when it comes to their own kind. If you consider Kastenessen (sp?) and that story, if anything it shows that the Elohim are quite willing and able to sacrifice one of their bunch for what is necessary. And that they've done it many times besides that one time was included as part of the story.

And don't they after all consider each of them to be the same as any other? If so, this doesn't argue for a lot of concern for Findail's case.

All in all, I think that the outcome that Felice and the other Elohim were avoiding at TC's cost was not the Findail piece, but something else!

And why destroy Vain? How does he imperil them? The Findail/Vain thing? That's not imperiling them at all ... certainly not anyone but Findail, and even then it's not so much a demise - in the worst case it's mostly becoming subservient.

How did they think things were going to work out without Vain in the picture? Part of the plan seems to be TC giving up hope, and part of the plan seems to be LA getting a ring. Then what? Could she heal the Land w/o a SofL? Could she rid the Land of Foul? Would the White Gold even be free of Venom?

It just doesn't make sense. There's something else going on here, something deeper...

One thing that is interesting is that the Elohim attempted to imprison Vain, and not destroy him -- as the Clave tried to do, but that makes sense - and as Findail tried, whom we can consider to be selfishly motivated and not acting for all Elohim. Findail couldn't do it, but that seems part of his design, a part that Findail himself fit into. But could all the Elohim in Elemesnedene have done it? I would think yes.
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Seppi2112
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Post by Seppi2112 »

Its a very interesting point that you mention Wayfriend. What really IS their purpose in trying to imprison Vain.

I hear a request to the gradual interview calling...
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Post by wayfriend »

Seppi2112 wrote:I hear a request to the gradual interview calling...
That would spoil it!
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Fist and Faith
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Wayfriend wrote:... meanwhile, Findail [remember Findail? This is a story about Findail] :D
It all started two Elohimfests ago, that's two years ago on Elohimfest.
Wayfriend wrote:I really can't buy into the idea that the other Elohim are so worried about Findail's fate.
I think you're right. You give good reasons. I especially like:
Wayfriend wrote:And don't they after all consider each of them to be the same as any other? If so, this doesn't argue for a lot of concern for Findail's case.
Regarding the rest...
The primary goal of the Elohim was to prevent the destruction of the Earth. Which they thought was a near certainty if Covenant kept the ring. Their first, preferred solution was for Findail to get the ring.

Their second choice was for Linden to get it. Better her than Covenant, after all. But if Findail only managed this goal, they knew the new Staff would have to come into being.

Not sure about why they imprisoned Vain. Maybe they thought he could force the merging if he really wanted to, and if they had him under lock & key, he couldn't do it. (Or at least they hoped.) Or maybe they planned to kill him, figuring Findail would likely succeed with the preferred solution anyway. And maybe if Vain was dead, Findail would have a decent chance of convincing Covenant and Linden that the only possible solution was to give the ring to him.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
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Post by wayfriend »

I've had an idea about the answer to the question I raised a few replies back.
myself wrote:I really can't buy into the idea that the other Elohim are so worried about Findail's fate. [...] All in all, I think that the outcome that Felice and the other Elohim were avoiding at TC's cost was not the Findail piece, but something else!
Then I was discussing something on the Theories topic which led me to examine an SRD interview, which led me to something that I think is germaine. It wasn't that the words gave me the idea so much as that they helped me realize I was maybe on the right track.
INTERVIEW: October 1991 wrote:The two stories together are a kind of moral hierarchy: the first one is relatively simple concerned with muscle; the second is a test of sacrifice in relationships - Covenant can't save The Land alone in The Second Chronicles , and neither can Linden Avery. It takes what they can both give, and what they can both give up, to save The Land.
(Emphasis is mine.) At some point I would like to draw up, or discover where someone has already drawn up, a list of parallels between the First and Second Chronicles. Until then, it is firm in my mind that the Elohim are, in some respects, the Hile Troy of the Second Chronicles. Which is to say, they are a Covenant foil, even a specific kind of Covenent foil - a foil which illuminates The Wrong Way To Go.

So on to my hypothesis: The Elohim have the power to save the world, but they are unable to tolerate that they cannot do this without assistance.

This is why they are ill disposed towards Vain. He represents a view, one which they might very well find to be correct, that this time the world cannot be saved by just the Elohim. That there is another necessary force in the Earth which provides what they lack. (And it's certain that they lack - the resolution of Vain's mystery asserts this.)

This is why they imprisoned Vain, and didn't destroy him, and then essentially let him go. They had to admit that he might be necessary.

Certainly the Elohim demonstrate the haughtiness on which this theory rests.

This Elohim conflict highlights by contrast the plights of Covenant and Linden. Covenant cannot save the Land by himself either. But he, unlike the Elohim, can find a way to deal with that. And the same goes for Avery as well.

We know the Elohim lie. When they say "He is a peril to us" et. al. they are being misleading without outright lying. The peril represented by Vain is not the peril of destruction, but the peril of truth. Indeed, he was directed with great skill to coerce them from their path - the path of arrogance which suggests the world will not be saved unless it can be saved by the Elohim solely. Indeed, they "will never endure" it.
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danlo
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Post by danlo »

Fascinating post Wayfriend-excellent theories re: Vain/Elohim **wanders off to think**
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Post by SoulBiter »

birdandbear wrote:Why, do you think, were the Earthpower incarnate Elohim unable to see what Mhoram, a puny mortal, saw - that TC himself was the white gold?
I think they did see it. When Chant first appeared he looked at Linden and said "You are the sun sage" and then looked over at Covenant and said "You are not!" and then left.

Then when Chant came back it was with Felice to confront Linden. They wanted to know why he had her white ring. Linden said its his it has always been his. Chant then says "This is untrue" but then Felice says.. "It is true. Its mark lies deep within him."

And as usual they were talking amoung themselves like no one else was worthy to hear or speak to them. They said their "vision" showed the ringweilder and the sun sage would come as one person and that was why they were so perplexed because they couldnt imagine their 'vision' being wrong. However as you find out later it probably wasnt their vision that was wrong but how they interpreted it.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Yes, Wayfriend, danlo's right! Excellent post!! Very nice insights into the Elohim! Dead on!

And you got me to thinking... I think the 2nd Chrons could have been called Joinings.
Vain & Findail
Sun Sage & White Gold
Brinn & ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol
Sunder & Hollian
(I suppose I'm missing some, so shout 'em out!)

All joinings had a supernatural element, and all were vital to the Land's salvation.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon

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