Hile Troy

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UrLord
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Post by UrLord »

Wha? So I'm not allowed to dislike a character? Troy had a Superman complex; he believed himself the savior of the world! I'd even say that he didn't completely believe that the Land was real either...to him, it was almost a video game in which he could act out the role of The Mighty Hero who will save the world!
Troy is basically a good and responsible guy, and he made some mistakes than anyone would make.
I certainly wouldn't; I'm not like Troy. Ask anyone who has tried to put me in a position of responsibility ;) You talk about that "certain special something", and how he just didn't have the "rest of what is necessary" to defeat Lord Foul. There's nothing special about Troy's failure, as you seem to imply here; I've known people like Troy, who seek out positions of authority with complete reckless confidence in their ability to accomplish any task. Guess what? They often fail too, even without a "supreme" evil being getting in their way.

As has been said before (and as I've often said myself), those who desire positions of power are the ones who under no circumstances should be allowed to have them.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

UrLord wrote:As has been said before (and as I've often said myself), those who desire positions of power are the ones who under no circumstances should be allowed to have them.
I won't argue with you about Troy, because I don't think too much of him either. Why they gave the position of Warmark to somebody who fell apart at the first obstacle, and had no backup plans, is beyond me. But I don't entirely agree with this quote. Surely, some people have more leadership ability than others, no matter what particular area we need a leader for. Some people are better organized, or better at inspiring others, or have an easier time grasping the concepts that the job requires. Yet we often find those who are NOT suited, in any way, trying to get into positions of power. So what's wrong with the first type saying, "Hey, folks, I know a whole lot more about this than that guy does. Test me in any way you like. Things would work out much better for us all - except for him, maybe - if I was in charge here." People accused Mozart of being arrogant about his superior musical ability. I'm not a very big fan of his compositions, but his natural ability was extraordinary, and he'd have had to have been an idiot to not notice the huge difference between him and nearly every other person he ever met. (Maybe he expressed this badly, eh? :))
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
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Krilly
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Post by Krilly »

Krilly, I'd say that Troy died in the fire
*2nd Chronicle Spoilers*

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Hmm perhaps you're right... but I was under the impression that Thomas did not die in TWL, but was mortally wounded. The time that passes from the point he was stabbed and sent to the Land to the point where he dies of blood loss is where the events of the three books take place. That's why Linden is so distraught, because she keeps making reference to how when and if they get out of this "dream" she will not be able to save his life. Thus his death by the hands of the Despiser coincides with his death from the stab wound.

I am pretty sure I think this way because it's my belief that the Land is subconcious. Creation, Despite, Earth, etc all symbolic of our inner self to a point where Donaldson presents us with the idea that there is an actual world inside of us all.
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Post by dennisrwood »

i'd always assumed Hile was in a coma for a bit, then died. and i do think many people are being way too unkind to someone who acted, while others wallowed in their own impotence. sometimes you have to have someone who wants to seize power. it gets people moving. and i guess i'm abscribing some virtues that Hile doesn't possess. or maybe it's that i lead in much the same way he does, by action. (i work in a prison, a sergeant in the kitchen) couldn't Thomas had teamed with him? together they would have shored up each other's weaknesses. yes Hile failed, but he failed trying. and he gave himself to the land, he agreed to a price without asking that price, because he wanted to act, to do, to try...
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variol son
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Post by variol son »

True, Troy was someone who inspired others, someone who got off his butt and did something, but I can't understand why he had NO contingency plans.

He had no contingency plan in case the Ramen messengers were delayed, which was certainly very possible, and no idea where to fight Foul if he couldn't reach Doom's Retreat.

He had no contingency plan in case Foul's army was too big to meet in Doom's Retreat, and no emergency rations in case they were stuck in the Southron Wastes for any onger than a few days.

It's all very wel being a go-getter, but Troy didn't plan on anything going wrong, and so didn't really plan at all. That is inexcusable. If he really loved the Land so much, he would have been better prepared.

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You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.

In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.

He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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Post by CovenantJr »

To be fair to Troy, he was way out of his depth. Ok, he didn't have any contingency plans, but he never needed to in the real world. He was willing to pay Caer Caveral's price, whatever it may have been, in order to save the Warward. Also remember that he had never faced an opponent like the Despiser before; as I recall, he only ever used simulations, not an actual opponent, but even if he had practiced his skills against human enemies, he could never have practiced against someone with thousands of years of experience, and almost infinite resources.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Krilly wrote:*2nd Chronicle Spoilers*

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Hmm perhaps you're right... but I was under the impression that Thomas did not die in TWL, but was mortally wounded. The time that passes from the point he was stabbed and sent to the Land to the point where he dies of blood loss is where the events of the three books take place. That's why Linden is so distraught, because she keeps making reference to how when and if they get out of this "dream" she will not be able to save his life. Thus his death by the hands of the Despiser coincides with his death from the stab wound.
Good points. And it's possible that Covenant couldn't find any evidence of Troy's existence in the "real" world because it was classified. But Covenant will still be around in the Last Chrons. And if it there's anywhere near as much time between 2nd and Last as there was between 1st and 2nd, then Covenant will have been dead for several years "real" time. And so it's at least possible that Troy was dead in the real world all along.


In Troy's defense, I've always found it sort of noble that he instantly agreed to Caerroil Wildwood's price without the slightest concern for what that price would be. (MM, I don't think he had any thoughts of "working out the terms" with Wildwood.) He really did love the Land and its people. Unfortunately, everyone considered wargames to be proof enough of his ability, and trusted him entirely. And maybe it's their fault as much as his. Did anybody ask what contingency plans he had? Did they insist that he make some?

In any event, SRD has said that Troy's role was to show us the disasterous results of NOT having any self-doubt, of rushing in to save the day.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
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Post by Furls Fire »

Power is a double-edged blade...

Troy didn't understand that...
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Krilly
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Post by Krilly »

I still don't get why Donaldson did not have Troy react to The Forestal coming to claim him. I'd think he would resist since he was preparing to save Elena or atleast give some sort of final word... but nothing. It's actually quite sad because his last action before passing is one of blind anger, violence, and despair... and he never got a chance to purify himself before Wildwood took him. It's like a story never completed.
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Post by duchess of malfi »

Ah, but his completion (and caamora) come in WGW... :)
Love as thou wilt.

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Krilly
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Post by Krilly »

Ah you're right. Forgotten that... I'm in the process of re-reading the books agains and I've only just completed TPTP. 8)
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Post by CovenantJr »

Fist and Faith wrote:In Troy's defense, I've always found it sort of noble that he instantly agreed to Caerroil Wildwood's price without the slightest concern for what that price would be. (MM, I don't think he had any thoughts of "working out the terms" with Wildwood.) He really did love the Land and its people.
Indeed, well put :)
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variol son
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Post by variol son »

Fist and Faith wrote:Did anybody ask what contingency plans he had? Did they insist that he make some?
Excellent point Fist. In my mind, if Troy didn't mention it when presenting his plan, the first thing the Lord's should have asked was, "What if Foul's army is too big to fight at Doom's Retreat?", followed by, "Where will you fight if you can't fight at Doom's Retreat?", and, "What if your messengers are delayed and you can't reach the Retreat in time?".

Even after that, when they had accepted him, the question of adequate provisions for a long campaign in the Retreat, and the poossibility of escape if the Retreat doesn't work as it should, needed to be asked. The Lords needed to ask.

I don't think they did because I don't think they truly understood the nature of Troy's hypothetical war games. It would have just sounded so out-of-this-world, and been so beyond their comprehension, that they ignored any doubts. This happened to Covenant a lot in Lord Foul's Bane; whenever Covenant bought up a topic that they couldn't understand, like leprosy, the people of the Land simply ignored it, most of the time.

However, I don't buy into the line that Troy wouldn't have needed contingency plans in his world. I mean, it's the unbeatable senario, the Kobioshi Maru. Any war game that doesn't have one is crap, imho. :D

Sum sui generis
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You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.

In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.

He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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matrixman
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Post by matrixman »

Krilly wrote:I still don't get why Donaldson did not have Troy react to The Forestal coming to claim him. I'd think he would resist since he was preparing to save Elena or atleast give some sort of final word... but nothing. It's actually quite sad because his last action before passing is one of blind anger, violence, and despair... and he never got a chance to purify himself before Wildwood took him.
Have you considered that it was perhaps intentional on SRD's part to make Troy's last action one of, as you say, "blind anger, violence, and despair"? It is the result of his reckless choice to bargain with the Forestal coming back to haunt him in the end. Troy had agreed to any price, and the Forestal certainly wasn't about to let his payment go galloping off, just because Troy felt badly about Elena. The petty feelings of one short-lived human mean nothing to a Forestal.

As for why Troy did not react to or resist the Forestal: well, how could he? Everyone's power of movement had been suddenly frozen by Wildwood. This clearly included the power of speech. And how exactly would Troy have resisted Wildwood? Troy may have had the white gold in his hand, but he was hardly a master of it, as Wildwood himself pointed out. Troy was like a petulant kid with a firecracker in his hand waving threats in the air...right next to the Forestal of Garroting Deep. Yeah, like Wildwood was going to give this guy any chance at all of accidentally setting some of the trees on fire...

Okay, you may get from all I've said in this thread that I have issues with Troy. Yes, it's true. :)

But I do at least have one thing in common with him: we both have the hots for Elena. :twisted:

Seriously, Troy's infatuation with Elena is surely something anyone can identify with. This leads to a poignant aspect of Troy: his increasingly troubled thoughts about the future, ominous feelings about Elena's fate and his own. Because of the special gift of his sight, and the fact that it was Elena who had taught him the meaning of his visions, Troy perhaps saw Elena more intensely than others around him. For him, she was the Land personified.

So when her end comes, Elena's imminent death is that much more devastating for Troy. From his vantage, her loss is the loss of the Land itself, but also the loss of his hopes and dreams. In Troy's anguish and helplessness at news of Elena's fall we sense a lost, forever unrequited love. Her death is his, symbollically and literally, as the Forestal claims Troy's life as the price of his aid. Thus, Troy's last chance to save Elena by himself--or declare his love--is denied, and in that I can grieve for him and Elena.

See? I'm not such a bad guy. :)
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Post by ur-bane »

Hile Troy had to not save Elena.
Elena had to fail (die).
Just as Kevin had to commit desecration.
An underlying theme in these Chronicles is the strength of self.
Those who were successful throughout the six books had their own inner strength and guidance.

Hile Troy? In the end, his hope was placed in Mhoram. (paraphrasing)...."You have to save us...you promised......"

Elena? Her belief was in dead Kevin, not herself. Therefore it was that she Commanded him from the Dead, to strike a blow against Despite that she herself could not.

Even Covenant would not have beaten the Despiser if at the last he had not come into the realization that he did not have to lose. That he was stronger than Despite. Sure, he needed a trigger for the wild magic, but his pupose was strong and sure. His belief at that moment was in himself, not somebody else to come along and save him.

Companionship and help are always welcome throughout the Chronicles, but in the end, the winners are those who believe in, and are strengthened by, their sense of self.
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Post by wayfriend »

There's one thing that I'm surprised hasn't come up.

The Lords gave Hile Try his position. You have to have some modicum of belief that they knew what they were doing, and that they weren't having the wool pulled over their eyes. Even Quann himself avowed Troy. There was at least one occasion where he tried to opt out, and there were several points in the story, notably after things started to fall apart, where the Lords re-affirmed their trust and faith in him.

I'm going to give Elena, Mhoram and the Lords some credit.

I think it's really important to see that Hile was someone who otherwise could have been successful, if he was not so succeptible to Lord Foul; if he was not so blind to the traps Despite lays, and more aware of the risk that comes with the power of extreme emotions.

Also, we need to remember that the Land is a place of heroes, while Troy was "like us". In comparison, he could be called despicable, but only in comparison I feel. He's no Mhoram, no Bannor, okay. But it's only that he's human.
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Post by UrLord »

Well, yes, I already recognise the fact that the man was highly skilled, and the Lords recognized that. It's his personality that I can't stand, his superhero mentality that made him overconfident when he should have had more respect for his opponent's abilities.
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Post by savant »

CovenantJr wrote: (snip)
Take hold of your coffee mug right now, and try to get some magic out of it....................... Managed it yet? That was the position with Covenant and the ring - even if he wanted to use it, he had no idea even where to start.
Yeah; that'd be pretty trippy and simultaneously utterly frustrating~! I'm the type of person that, if I bought into something like the Land as reality, would definitely do all I could to help the people, and I'd be wracked with guilt and self-hatred over being unable to do something while knowing all the while I possessed the power to do so... like it was my own fault I was too stupid to figure out what to do/how to use the ring.
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Post by savant »

Furls Fire wrote:The wild magic was just that....wild. Covenant didn't use the ring because he could not control the wild magic. Or, at least, in the Illearth War he thought he couldn't. And even after he did start using it, he could barely control it. I'm already too dangerous.

Troy didn't understand the essence of all that power. He didn't understand that power can be a two edge blade if not controlled. What was he going to do with it in Garrotting Deep when he picked it up and pointed it at Melenkurion Skyweir??? Bring the mountain down??? How would that have saved Elena??? He just didn't get it. Like SRD said...he was too innocent.

Wild Magic which destroys peace. Think about that for a minute. Wild Magic which destroys peace. Was if fear that kept Covenant from using the white gold? You bet it was. Fear of destroying the Land, the Arch, the universe...and himself. It wasn't until he understood what Mhoram had told him "you are the white gold" that he realized how he could use his power. But, without understanding power, the capacity to destroy is certain. Mhoram understood that, Covenant understood that, but Hile Troy never did.
Wow! There are some good questions and observations on this thread~!

I'd always thought it was strange how Troy took the ring and just started going off like he did toward the mountain, like wondering what he was trying to do with the power. It seemed he would be willing to destroy peace to save Elena and get her to pay the type of attention to him that she was giving to Covenant.

A little OT, but looking back, I kinda' have to laugh at myself for the image Troy put in my mind the first time I read the series; I had this image of Jordy from the Next Generation in my head, and I think that helped me to like him more than other people seem to~! :D
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Post by mhorgel »

Troy suffers from an affliction that many of the characters in the Chronicles do...hubris, or excessive pride. Troy has so much faith in his plan, he doesn't think he needs backups or contingencies. The Chronicles are rife with examples of characters and peoples who are brought down because they cannot live up to their own expectations...
Spoiler
Namely the Giants who lay down and allow themselves to be killed by Kinslaughterer, the Bloodguard who leave the service of the lords because of 3 Bloodguard who were corrupted by the Illearth Stone, everybody who blinded themselves to the meaning of Kevin's lore because of their Oath of Peace. I'm sure there are many more.
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