Various possible plot holes in The Illearth War

[Borillar]

Ok, some things have arisen in my mind as I reread TIW:

1) After Kevin calls Elena a "fool" and rushes off to get defeated by Foul, why doesn't Covenant just drink the Earthblood himself and order Kevin back into the grave? From the description, a sizable amount of time passed between the time Kevin left and the time he returned. And Elena may not be able to drink the blood again, but Covenant (or Bannor) can. Even if he didn't think to do it when Kevin returned, he could have done it after Kevin and Elena fell into the crevice and kept fighting...

2) If Amok is the "way and the door" to the Seventh Ward (i.e. his "interlocking" is needed at one point to go safely through) and he dissolves after giving Elena access, how can any future person get there? Was the Seventh Ward intended to only ever be used once?

3) Don't the Bloodguard know where *all* the Wards are placed? Covenant at one point notes that the Bloodguard were probably with Kevin when he placed the Second Ward below Mount Thunder. So why don't they ask the Bloodguard (after they realize they knew something about the Seventh Ward) where the 3rd, 4th etc are?

Ok, that's all -- would love some feedback!

[CovenantJr]

2 & 3 - I don't know, they require some more thought.

1 - My answer would be: Covenant didn't believe in doing anything at that point. He was still very much the Unbeliever, still resolved to merely getting to the end of his dream with his sanity intact. He had no inclination to use power; in fact, it would probably have terrified him.

[wayfriend]

Regarding the power of command: Use of the Earthblood requires lore, in a very specific sense, which Elena had and Covenant and the Bloodguard did not have. It is the Seventh Ward of Kevin's Lore. As the High Lord, only Elena had a chance, but in reality only a master of the Sixth Ward of Kevin's Lore could be ready. The Bloodguard refuse to use lore, as they refuse to use any weapon. And Covenant had his bargain, and his distrust of power, and his refusal to be at the crux of the Land's salvation. For Covenant, it was enough that not even Kevin wanted to use this Ward; he wanted nothing to do with it; in fact, he believed it was playing into Foul's hands for anyone to use it.

Regarding Amok: once the way was shown, presumably someone else now knows how to find the Power of Command, and so Amok is no longer necessary. Once the Seventh Ward has been granted, it need not be granted again.

Regarding the Bloodguard: It was made clear in the text that asking them to reveal Kevin's secrets was disrespectful. The Bloodguard hold lore in disdain, and don't help the Lords attain it. And if Kevin wanted these Wards secret, then the Bloodguard are not going to gainsay his wishes. No one wants to put the Bloodguard in the position of betraying Kevin and handing over lore - it's against all that they stand for. Only the Land's need caused them to do it the one time.

[Encryptic]

Ok, some things have arisen in my mind as I reread TIW:

1) After Kevin calls Elena a "fool" and rushes off to get defeated by Foul, why doesn't Covenant just drink the Earthblood himself and order Kevin back into the grave? From the description, a sizable amount of time passed between the time Kevin left and the time he returned. And Elena may not be able to drink the blood again, but Covenant (or Bannor) can. Even if he didn't think to do it when Kevin returned, he could have done it after Kevin and Elena fell into the crevice and kept fighting...

2) If Amok is the "way and the door" to the Seventh Ward (i.e. his "interlocking" is needed at one point to go safely through) and he dissolves after giving Elena access, how can any future person get there? Was the Seventh Ward intended to only ever be used once?

3) Don't the Bloodguard know where *all* the Wards are placed? Covenant at one point notes that the Bloodguard were probably with Kevin when he placed the Second Ward below Mount Thunder. So why don't they ask the Bloodguard (after they realize they knew something about the Seventh Ward) where the 3rd, 4th etc are?

Ok, that's all -- would love some feedback!

1. Maybe Covenant was in shock at what Elena did and didn't think to do anything with the Earthblood. Or, as someone else has pointed out, his Unbelief could have prevented him from acting.


2. Perhaps Kevin realized that he couldn't do anything with the Earthblood that wouldn't produce an undesired result so he decided that he would give someone else a chance to do so who might have a better insight into the uses of the Earthblood.

Remember, Amok was supposed to only have appeared once the Lords had found and mastered the first 6 Wards. Perhaps Kevin hoped that the Lords would be able to come up with a better use for the Earthblood once they had mastered the Wards and discovered how to summon Amok. Once they find the Earthblood, it's conceivable that someone else would know how to get there.


3. I kind of doubt the Bloodguard know much about the Wards other than what they may have overheard (the same way they knew about the Power of Command). Kevin didn't intend for the Wards to be found by just anyone, so I kind of imagine he probably took a few trips without the Bloodguard along to stash the Wards.

Either that or he commanded them not to say anything about the location of the Wards. They were already loyal to him, and I can possibly see them swearing not to reveal the location of the Wards as part of the Vow.

[dlbpharmd]

1. The Law of Death was broken the instant that Elena summoned Kevin. The damage was done at that point. Nothing that Covenant could have done would've made any difference.

Didn't Amok say that the Blood of the Earth was there for anyone who seeks it? I don't believe that one necessarily needed knowledge of lore in order to use the Power of Command.

2) I've always wondered about this one - Amok opened Damelon's Door, but there was no specific command used, so how would anyone else know how to open it?

3) This actually goes to the heart of the flaw in the Bloodguard's Vow. When Covenant forced Morin and Bannor to reveal the name of the Seventh Ward, he forced them to choose between their loyalty to Kevin and their service to the New Lords. If they had revealed the location of any of Kevin's hidden wards, this flaw would have been exposed at that time.

[Grimmand Honninscrave]

I agree with Wayfriend's reply.

[I'm Murrin]

An addition to the Bloodguard question - they were convinced once to choose between Kevin and the new Lords, and it had disastrous consequences. I do not believe they would have revealed any such information again in the short time they served the Lords before the Vow was broken.

[Borillar]

Regarding what Wayfriend said, Amok made it pretty clear that the only way through to the Earthblood was through Damelon's Door, and that only Amok had the ability to "unlock" the Door. If the knowledge of that unlocking were in the other Six Wards, then Amok wouldn't have been needed. In other words, it's not a question of just knowing where the Earthblood is; it's a question of being able to reach it. That's why I'm confused.

I also don't see any suggestion in the text that drinking the EarthBlood required any special lore. Does it say that anywhere? In fact, I thought Amok said something like *anyone* who drinks the EarthBlood gains the Power of Command.

As to the Bloodguard knowing the locations of the other Wards, I agree that even if they did know where they were, they'd probably be unlikely to reveal that knowledge given what happened with the Seventh Ward.

[tonyz]

Covenant, at that time, wasn't ready to react or do anything -- his own Unbelief was in the way, plus the whole atmosphere of the cavern (the presence of that much power is close to destroying him); the most he can force himself to do is appeal to Elena, even invoking the Oath of Peace.

To no avail.

As far as the unlocking of Damelon's Door, I think that Kevin was thinking that any competent Lord would be able to figure out how it was done just from seeing it done. It may be as simple as "hold your finger in the Door until the web is complete"; it may be a bit more complicated, but I doubt Kevin foresaw a problem there. (Security through obscurity is, of course, a very bad idea, but in this case it seems to have worked.)

And the Lords would not have asked the Bloodguard, at all. (They'd had five centuries to ask, after the Giants brought the First Ward to Revelstone.) Note that Elena, for all her desperation, doesn't even _think_ of asking the Bloodguard on the Watch. It's a blind spot on their part, yes, but a perfectly comprehensible blindspot rising out of the Bloodguard's own character (they won't answer) and the Lords' character -- they understand Kevin's purpose in concealing the Wards, and don't want to short-circuit the process for fear of getting burned by using something they don't understand.

As indeed happens.

[MrKABC]

Lots of good discussion here... I also wondered about Damelon's Door and how it worked - Amok himself said that the knowledge of unlocking the Door was contained in none of the Wards - suggesting that Kevin had intended only one access/use of the EarthBlood.

I had another (related) question: Who carved all of stone in Earthroot and the cavern/waterfall of Earthrootstair? Who dragged a boat in there? <grinning>

It seems that LOTS of people had access to the Earthblood during the construction phase of Earthrootstair...

[wayfriend]

Amok made it pretty clear that the only way through to the Earthblood was through Damelon's Door, and that only Amok had the ability to "unlock" the Door. ... That's why I'm confused.

Me too. I'm only saying that Kevin would only need to reveal the existence of the Earthblood to the new Lords once. As far as the requirements necessary to reach it - I have no ideas. Other than that this seems similar to the location of the One Tree and it's Guardian - the way is accessible the one time. I think that the author believes that such challenges are undertaken but rarely, and each should be unique - no one gets to repeat what the last guy did.

I also don't see any suggestion in the text that drinking the EarthBlood required any special lore.

I don't think it requires lore. I think it's just a stupid idea if you don't have any. Lore could be described as knowledge of how to weild power. You should have lots of this before you drink the Earthblood! The Power of Command is the Seventh Ward, the Seventh Ward is Kevin's Lore.

BTW

After Kevin calls Elena a "fool" and rushes off to get defeated by Foul, why doesn't Covenant just drink the Earthblood himself and order Kevin back into the grave?

Here's another thought. I think Covenant (and anyone) would be thinking, Elena drank that, it brought us disaster; I think drinking some more would only bring us more disaster.

And finally: At the time, the consequences of the breaking of the Law of Death were not known.

[Aleksandr]

Re: After Kevin calls Elena a "fool" and rushes off to get defeated by Foul, why doesn't Covenant just drink the Earthblood himself and order Kevin back into the grave?

TC is still in his “I don’t want to be powerful” phase.

Re: If Amok is the "way and the door" to the Seventh Ward (i.e. his "interlocking" is needed at one point to go safely through) and he dissolves after giving Elena access, how can any future person get there?

He wasn’t needed originally (because he didn’t even exist) so maybe it was intended that he would tecah the new Lords how to undo the lock that Kevin must have added.

[Grimmand Honninscrave]

The wards were made to be found in a certain order. The understanding of one leeds to the next one. Once the sixth ward is understood, they will know how to awaken the krill which will summon Amok.

[SoulBiter]

1. At that point in the book Covenant is sure that they are being manipulated by Foul. He distrusts using the blood of the earth and tryed to get Elena not to do it. After she and Kevin were fighting Bannor asks him to help her. He tries but not being used to using such power, he steps into the cataclysm and loses consiousness to wake being wisked away by Bannor. So perhaps it never occured to him until it was too late.

2. Im thinking the Blood of the Earth can still be gotten to but without Amok to guild them there, they would now have to find it for themselves.
Now since Covenant and Bannor were the only ones to make it out, no one knows where its at and Bannor and TC werent telling.

3. Same as the last sentence above. TC was the only one to finally figure out that the Bloodguard knew more than they were telling. However since only he, Amok, Bannor and Elena were the only ones there when he figured it out, they would be the only ones who knew. Bannor and TC were the only ones to make it out alive and neither were telling where the rest of the wards were. Also consider that after finding the seventh before they were ready for it, it had been misused. I wouldnt have told anyone either.

Regards
SoulBiter

[Grimmand Honninscrave]

I don't know if Bannor knows where the rest of the wards are, He only said he heard of "The power of Command."

[matrixman]

2 & 3 - I don't know, they require some more thought.

1 - My answer would be: Covenant didn't believe in doing anything at that point. He was still very much the Unbeliever, still resolved to merely getting to the end of his dream with his sanity intact. He had no inclination to use power; in fact, it would probably have terrified him.

Totally agree. Why in the world would Covenant suddenly decide that drinking the Earthblood would be a good thing for him to do? Such an act would be completely out of character for him.

[Encryptic]

I had another (related) question: Who carved all of stone in Earthroot and the cavern/waterfall of Earthrootstair? Who dragged a boat in there? <grinning>

It seems that LOTS of people had access to the Earthblood during the construction phase of Earthrootstair...

Yeah, that always bugged me. Amok mentions that Earthroot used to rise in season to meet those that sought its waters, though its never been clarified just what they were seeking Earthroot for.

At least at the time of Illearth War, the water of Earthroot was definitely not something you wanted to come in contact with, so I'm not totally clear on just what purpose it served in the past.

Maybe it used to be some kind of uber-resort where the rich folks of the Land would go to be restored by the power of Earthroot?

[Grimmand Honninscrave]

Elena was bid on any thing that had to do with Kevin and Covenant. She was Covenant's daughter, so she had to prove her self a servant of the and by proving she was as powerful as Kevin. She went for the seven'th ward because Kevin wrote it. If she could get it. Maybe she could defeat Foul.

[amanibhavam]

It's hard to tell who built Earthrootstair and the columns and all. Maybe the Earthpower, being in it's purest form he, expressed itself in the creation of all those stuructures and no mortal had anything to do with them at all.