Do it yourself GI! . . . .Now ANSWERED by Stephen Donaldson!

[Insanity Falls]

Hi, I'm new!

And I really like this place already!
You folks are funny, smart, and interesting!
And, you have snazzy pictures (I want one!)

I've just plucked up the pluck to send a question (well loads of questions - how shocking!) to Stephen D's Gradual Interview!

Yet I imagine he's recovering from his flight to Britain now and eagerly rushing to start writing Fatal Revenant, so I bet he'll have no time for me at all! (and too right! Rock on with Revenant SD!).

Anyway, I am NOT really expecting Stephen D to take it up because of this, and yet I AM eager to hear the answer!

So I think, well lets ask Kevin! Perhaps Kevin can help!

So folks, here is my question(s) to SD, and I invite any one and every one to tell me their answer!

********BIG SPOILERS FOR SECOND CHRONICLES*******

Tuck in folks :

I was very entertained by the "One Tree", as there was lots of exciting newness in it.

It was exciting to have the story

Spoiler

"hijacked" by the Kemper

and this bit was thrilling for me.

Spoiler

The Worm of World's End is a very "unexpected character" for this reader, which added a new dimension to everything. And in made the notion of World's End, very much more real and dangerous!

Whence came the idea for this I wonder!

I have a highly-emotional yet mixed response to the Second Chronicles, because whilst they are fantastically AWESOME and HYPER-BRILLIANT in many many places, and over and over again, the schema upon which the RESOLUTION of the Second Chronicles depends upon has always struck me as VERY SHAKY, and because I like the books so much, it has unhappily bothered me much more than is sensible!!

Perhaps you would care to shed some light on this, and perhaps help me understand (if this is possible!) [ONE of the reasons I am excited about the Last Chronicles, is that I am keen to understand more about what went on in the second!]

I have been reluctant to ask you this, because appreciating the bulk of your work so VERY much, it seems a bit rude to pick up on something I don't react well too!

So here are specific questions that might help:

Spoiler

What happened to Vain at the One Tree? Did he need to gain something from being touched by the aura of the Worm? Or was it just COINCIDENCE - as he had been pre-programmed by his makers to be able and ready to turn into a staff of wood, and the hyper primal power of the aura of the worm just accidentally set that inbuilt power uncontrollably off for a brief burst of transformation?

I have to think that the Forestal had a hand in the making of a being who was to turn into a PIECE OF WOOD!! (Caer-Caveral has some experience in this area I think!)

And why did Lord Foul EVER expect Thomas Covenant to just hand him the ring (or did he not, as was that just a machination of his, to make the things he wanted happen?)

Did Thomas Covenant fear Lord Foul would possess/merge with Linden, if he had given her the ring - so that Thomas Covenant would have effectively given the Despiser his ring, by having given in to Linden?

But surely Lord Foul wasn't planning to have Linden in the Land?

And for what its worth, I will NEVER buy that the Dead could not just have told Covenant what's what!

He had already shown his resistance to posession by Despite, so he would have been a safe carrier of this information!

I will NEVER buy the notion that the truth is dangerous! Ignorance is dangerous!

Having been deceived, misled, and bewildered by outrageously reckless insanity from early childhood - I shall treat apologies for mystification and obfuscation about anyone not telling-people-what's-what when they need it, with the OUTRAGE that is deserves!!

Thanks very much for your writings! I wish you very well in your exploits, and wish you the best "unexpected characters" and happenings.

Thanks again!

Feel free to pick a question!

Thank you in advance for any help anyone can give!
I shall have to go to bed now, so I won't be able to catch any response for a few hours.

Best wishes to you all!!

[Iryssa]

*grin* well...I think the Last Chronicles will answer a lot of these...he might tell you the same (he's given a lot of "wait and see"-type responses...). I'll try to give answers for a couple of your points...

As far as ignorance being dangerous goes...well, read Runes and you'll see how true this is.

I don't think Donaldson means that all truth is dangerous...in answer to an interviewer's questioning on the subject he said this:

"Knowledge that is unearned, in a manner of speaking, or knowledge that is given to you instead of being worked out for yourself becomes dangerous. The earning of knowledge gives you the wisdom or the readiness to use it correctly when you get it, and if it comes to you instead of being earned, then it becomes destructive...You can't just hand value systems to people, for instance. They have to find out what happens when they behave a certain way and then decide whether they want that to happen. "
- Stephen R. Donaldson, 1990, in an interview with W.A. Senior, writer of the study Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -- Variations on the Fantasy Tradition

So, it's the unearned knowledge that is dangerous, not all knowledge.

PS - If you want one of these spiffy pics, all you gotta do is PM Edge (just click where it says "you have no new messages" or "you have 1 new message" --or whatever it happens to say at the moment--click "new post" and write "Edge" where it says "Username" and then continue like it's an e-mail) and let him know...he makes these fabulous avatars

[Loredoctor]

Welcome to the watch, Insanity Falls.

[Insanity Falls]

Thank you very much for your answer and welcome Iryssa and Loremaster!

It has occurred to me that given Covenant's track record, that his Dead may not have trusted him very much ...! *grin*

Iryssa, I hear you with SD's answer

"Knowledge that is unearned, in a manner of speaking, or knowledge that is given to you instead of being worked out for yourself becomes dangerous. The earning of knowledge gives you the wisdom or the readiness to use it correctly when you get it, and if it comes to you instead of being earned, then it becomes destructive...You can't just hand value systems to people, for instance. They have to find out what happens when they behave a certain way and then decide whether they want that to happen. "

That sounds like obfuscation and mystification to me! *GRIN*

I think that "earned" and "unearned" carries implications that I can not subscribe to ....

In the books, leaving Covenant ignorant about the dangers of World's End was itself EXTREMELY dangerous, wasn't it?

And in reality 99% of our technical knowledge is given to us by our forbears. That would put each of us in a VERY dangerous situation if that were simply true!

Inexperience IS a danger, and the vulnerability of a person can create danger, and in-apt and powerful knowledge can amplify that.

But with a wee bit of experience of life (and cautiousness) - PLUS INTELIGENCE AND CARE - the dangers shall be taken care of ...

What IS dangerous, is giving power to people who are known to be reckless of sense and reason and life and earth!

[Insanity Falls]

I am getting a handle on this now ...

A person can earn (or lose) TRUST (not KNOWLEDGE!).

A person can earn TRUST to carry certain dangerous knowledges (a.k.a powers).

It is understandable that the Dead did not entirely trust Covenant (if at all) ... yet they sent him into a situation which endangered their entire Earth WITHOUT FOREWARNING HIM!

And they told him nothing of Vain, or his needs ...

Or perhaps they DID trust Covenent absolutely, expecting him to DEAL well with the dangers when they arose ...

***The truth is that I just don't buy it ... and the Second Chronicles shall remain spoiled for me(wonderful though they are) because elements VITAL TO THEIR RESOLUTION strike me as outrageously absurd ...***

Now the First Chronicles - the Chronicles of the Unbeliever - are full of FANTASTICAL absurdities. But that was part of the POINT of the First Chronicles - and the RESOLUTION of the First Chronicles WAS NOT FOUNDED UPON NONSENSE!

[Loredoctor]

One of the best avatars I've seen here, Insanity Falls. Any Dr Who fan is a friend of mine (and SRD apparently).

[dlbpharmd]

Welcome, Insanity Falls!

I asked SRD the question about Vain and the One Tree some time back. I'll try to find his exact answer, but basically he said that it was entirely necessary for Vain to be "touched" by the One Tree. How else could a Staff of Law be made, if not from the One Tree?

[Believer]

I can't speak for SRD, but whenver a sci-fi show talks about the prime directive and how they can't interfere with technological advancement (unless they're planning to eat you), like in ST, or Stargate, the implication is one of unearned knowledge being dangerous. Heck, sometimes they say it outright.

I think even the knowledge from our forebears is part of it. Part of the struggle/progress inherent with technological growth is the corresponding change/refinement of religious beliefs as well. Of course ours have become fractionalized as time has gone on, but any religion that is to be taken seriously also has to think about how to deal with life as it is now, with all of our scientific knowledge, rushed pace of life, etc.

Wow, I think this is one of my rare, serious posts!

[Insanity Falls]

Hey thanks Loremaster!!

Check out where I nicked the pic from! Redders Dalek Website

I am in awe of people who create images like these!

I love the Daleks!

They have got to be one of the most beautiful designs ever created!

[Insanity Falls]

Thanks dlbpharmd!!

I'll look forward to that!

[Insanity Falls]

Hail Believer!
A serious post?!

We'll have to stop that

[Insanity Falls]

Vain has come up again today in the GI!

Yes indeed, SD conceived Vain's One Tree bizarre-event as a necessity!

I've just plugged "Vain" into the new GI search engine, and there are lots of questions and answers!

That's what happens when an author writes mysterious characters!

[Loredoctor]

I love the Daleks!

They have got to be one of the most beautiful designs ever created!

Agreed; as well as the Zygons.

[Insanity Falls]

Zygons!!

[Insanity Falls]

Well Mr.Donaldson is a gentleman is he not?
HE HAS ANSWERED MY (VERY CHEEKY) QUESTION!!!!
And with style and substance and wit!
Tuck in folks!!!

As you obviously realize, you've asked quite a number of very complex questions: too many, and too complex, for me to try to answer them all at once. I've already discussed elsewhere what happened to Vain at the One Tree. And I suspect that you could deduce the answers to some of your other questions. So for now I'm only going to address this: "I will NEVER buy the notion that the truth is dangerous! Ignorance is dangerous!"

Now, I don't want to get side-tracked into a discussion of the difference between "truth" and "knowledge." But I would argue that what the Dead withhold from Covenant in Andelain is not truth, but rather knowledge. And I have had long and intimate experience with how dangerous premature knowledge can be. (Again, in order to avoid being side-tracked, I won't mention *parenting*; but any parent can tell you that it's easy to hurt children by teaching them things they aren't ready to learn.) I'll stick to one example: the study of the martial arts.

At their core, the martials arts (as knowledge) are all about killing and maiming. Yet every responsible teacher of the martial arts knows that it would be destructive and even immoral to teach "killing and maiming" without *first* teaching the control AND the maturity to make ethical choices about when and how to *use* "killing and maiming." EsPEcially since many students of the martial arts are children who aren't developmentally qualified to make ethical choices. Therefore every responsible teacher of the martial arts begins by teaching a stylized and restricted version of the real arts. Will we teach you how to kick your attacker effectively in the stomach? Yes, we will: an effective kick to the stomach can save your life, and is *very* unlikely to kill or maim your attacker. But will we teach you how to kick in a way that will shatter your attacker's kneecap? No, we will not: not until the student has demonstrated the control necessary to practice the technique safely AND the maturity necessary to use the technique appropriately.

My point is that knowledge is dangerous unless it has been *earned.* Which is exactly why Kevin went to all the trouble of concealing his lore in caches which were intended to be discovered in a specific sequence. Learning x prepares you to learn y safely. Learning y prepares you to learn z safely. In responsible martial arts schools, the earning of a black belt is considered a prerequisite to learning the *actual* martial art. A student without a black belt simply isn't *trusted* enough to be taught "killing and maiming."

So think about it. What do you suppose the consequences would be if Covenant's Dead had simply *explained* everything to him? Well, let's see. Who in his right mind would visit the Elohim under those conditions? Who in his right mind would risk rousing the Worm? And why would the Elohim *ever* decide to Appoint Findail if Covenant and Linden already knew all of the answers? ("Pardon me. We don't actually need anything from you. We just want to trick you into Appointing Findail so we can go risk destroying the world for the sole purpose of bringing Vain into contact with the right kind of power.")

It seems to me that the "schema" of "The One Tree" is considerably more solid than you think it is. (Keeping in mind that this is Just My Opinion, and you have every right to your own opinion.)

I am really glad to read SRD's response!
I am going to have to let it sink in before I can say anything sensible about it!

[hierachy]

Glad you got your answer.