Sunder- A Worthy Successor to H L Mhoram?/ Gov't of the Land

[KaosArcana]

I'm reading _The Wounded Land_ again, and I just
have to say a few words of praise for my man
Sunder of Mithil Stonedown.

He survives decades of being forced to sacrifice
the people he loves for the good of the Stonedown,
he retains enough humanity to be open to Covenant's
appeal and not only help them escape, but also turn
his back on everything he was raised to believe in
and serve as guide for a man who his people believed
to be a servant of their own personal devil, a-Jeroth.

And he later on proves to have a strong enough will
to resist the power of the Illearth Stone itself when
Gibbon tries to use it to compell him to speak of
the ur-Lord's fate. Even lore-wise Lords were hard
put to resist that ill might, but Sunder wasn't broken
by it.

Under other circumstances, I think Sunder could have
become a High Lord great enough to rival Mhoram and
the other greats.


So, Go Sunder Go! You da man!

[Ageless Stranger]

i must have forgotten about Gibbon using the Illearth Stone on Sunder, for some reason i thought it was destroyed in the first chronicles. i wish i had my books with me, but im getting a friend to read them..spreading the joy of TCTC. in any case, i agree that Sunder is quite an incredible guy. I think he would make a great Lord, but it may be pretty hard to stack up to Mhoram. hes just so nice!

[Fist and Faith]

Sunder is a most amazing character!!!!! Here's some of my favorite moments, just to remind everybody.

Nothin' but spoilers below, folks!!!

From TWL-

When Linden and Covenant are trying to get him to eat aliantha:

"It's not poison," Linden said clearly. "It's immune to the Sunbane."

"Eat it," Covenant urged. "This is why we're here. What we want to accomplish. Health. Earthpower. Eat it."

With a painful effort, Sunder dredged up his answer. "I do not wish to trust you." His voice was a wilderland. "You violate all my life. When I have learned that aliantha are not poison, you will seek to teach me that the Sunbane does not exist - that all the life of the Land through all the generations has had no meaning. That the shedding I have done is no less than murder." He swallowed harshly. "But I must. I must find some truth to take the place of the truth you destroy."

Abruptly, he took the berry, put it in him mouth.

For a moment, his soul was naked in his face. His initial anticipation of harm became involuntary delight; his inner world struggled to alter itself. His hands quavered when he took the seed from his mouth. "Heaven and Earth!" he breathed. His awe was as exquisite as anguish. "Covenant-" His jaw worked to form words. "Is this truly the Land - the Land of which my father dreamed?"

"Yes."

"Then he was mad." One deep spasm of grief shook Sunder before he tugged back about him the tattered garment of his self-command. "I must learn to be likewise mad."

When they try to persuade Hollian to join them and go to Revelstone, he gives her a good alternative, an option that she might be a fool to turn down.

His words took both Hollian and Linden by surprise. Hollian had plainly given no thought to the idea he raised. And Linden could not guess why he used such an argument. "Sunder," she said carefully, "what do you thing you're doing?"

"I seek to persuade her." He did not take his eyes from Hollian. "A choice made freely is stronger than one compelled. We must have her strength - else I fear we will not gain Revelstone."

Linden strove to understand him. "Do you mean to tell me that now you want to go to Revelstone?"

"I must," he responded; but his words were directed toward the eh-Brand. "No other purpose remains to me. I must see the lies of the Rede answered. Throughout all the generations of the Sunbane, the Riders have taken blood in the name of the Rede. Now they must be required to speak the truth."

And from WGW-

When Sunder and Covenant first meet again, after the events of the entire TOT - Sunder's side of which we have not yet learned:

"When first you persuaded me from my home and duty in Mithil Stonedown," he said thickly, "I demanded of you that you should not betray me. You impelled me on a mad search of the desert sun for my friend Marid, whom you could not save - and you refused me the use of my blood to aid you - and you required of me that I eat aliantha which I knew to be poison - and so I beseeched of you something greater than fidelity. I pleaded of you meaning for my life - and for the death of Nassic my father. And still you were not done, for you wrested Hollian Amith-daughter from her peril in Crystal Stonedown as if it were your desire that I should love her. And when we fell together into the hands of the Clave, you redeemed us from that hold, restored our lives.

"And still you were not done. When you had taught us to behold the Clave's evil, you turned your back on that crime, though it cried out for retrubution in the face of all the Land. There you betrayed me, ur-Lord. The meaning of which I was in such need you set aside. In its place, you gave me only a task that surpassed my strength."

But Sunder was still not done. "Therefore," he went on hoarsely, "it is my right that you should hear me. Ur-Lord and Unbeliever, white gold wielder," he said as if he were addressing the hot streaks that stained Covenant's face, "you have betrayed me - and I am glad that you have come. Though you come without hope, you are the one hope that I have known. You have it in your hands to create or deny whatever truth you will, and I desire to serve you. While you remain, I will accept neither despair nor doom. There is neither betrayal nor failure while you endure to me. And if the truth you teach must be lost at last, I will be consoled that my love and I were not asked to bear that loss alone.

"Covenant, hear me," he insisted. "No words suffice. I am glad that you have come."

After the Banefire has been put out, Covenant is making plans to go to Foul's Creche and fight Foul. Of course, he's trying to talk everyone out of going with him.

Linden thought he would say, Please. Please. But Sunder's indignation was vivid in the sharp light. "Risk, ur-Lord?" he rasped as soon as Covenant stopped. "Is it risk you fear? Or do you deem us unworthy to partake of your high purpose? Do you forget who we are?" His hand gripped at the krill wrapped and hidden within his jerkin. "Your world is otherwhere, and to it you will return when your task is done. But we are the Land. We are the life which remains. We will not sit in safety while the outcome of that life is determined!"

Covenant stood still under Sunder's outburst; but the small muscles around his eyes flinched as if he wanted to shout, What's the matter with you? We're going to face Lord Foul! I'm trying to spare you! Yet his quietness held.

"You're right," he said softly - more softly than Linden's desire to defend him. "You are the life of the Land. And I've already taken everything else away from you. Your homes, your families, your identities - I've spent them all and let you bear the cost. Don't you understand? I want to give something back. I want you to have a future." The one thing he and Linden did not possess. "So your son will have at least that much chance to be born and grow up healthy." The passion underlying his tone reminded her that he had a son whom he had not seen for eleven years. He might have been crying, Let me do this for you! "Is safety such a terrible price to pay?"

Hollian appeared to waver, persuaded by Covenant's unmistakable concern. But Sunder did not. His anger was swept out of him; his resolution remained. Thickly, he said, "Pardon my unseemly ire. Thomas Covenant, you are my friend in all ways. Will you grant to me your white ring, that I may ward you from the extremity of the Land's plight?" He did not need to wait for Covenant's answer. "Neither will I cede to you the meaning of my life. You have taught me to value that meaning too highly."

Worthy?? You're damned right he's worthy!!!! Thank you for the topic KaosArcana!!

[Samadhi Foul]

He is worthy beyond all words. Without him-

Spoiler

the Law of Life couldn't have been broken. Covenant and Linden would have been sacrificed for their blood. TC and LA would've died anyway if they'd managed to get away from the Stonedown. They might not've survived either of the Grims.

And even more than that.

So, yes. He is worthy of being a High Lord. A High Lord that would rival even Mhoram. Sunder!

[I'm Murrin]

If he had lived in a time when there were High Lords, I doubt he would have been anything more than a Gravelingas of the Rhadhamaerl.
His strength came from the sunbane and the suffering it caused - he had to grow up with the shame of his father's insanity and exile, he was forced to kill his family and friends, and to shed his own blood to survive - To cope with all that he would have to become strong.
A man like Sunder would never have existed in the time of the Lords of Revelstone.

[Lord Mhoram]

Hmm, theoretically he could be a good high lord, but can be even leave Andelain? Furthermore, can he lead? What Murrin is saying does interest me..

[KaosArcana]

Murrin:


Murrin Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 6:15 pm Post subject:

--
If he had lived in a time when there were High Lords, I doubt he would have been anything more than a Gravelingas of the Rhadhamaerl.
His strength came from the sunbane and the suffering it caused - he had to grow up with the shame of his father's insanity and exile, he was forced to kill his family and friends, and to shed his own blood to survive - To cope with all that he would have to become strong.
A man like Sunder would never have existed in the time of the Lords of Revelstone.

You might as well say that if Mhoram had been born in an era of peace
he would have been a forgotten Unfettered.

What makes Sunder is great is the same thing that made Mhoram
great-- his strength of heart.

In a world where life was only made possible through death and
bloodshed, Sunder still valued life.

Mhoram freed Covenant from his summons so that Covenant could
save the life of one little girl. He chose the life of a child that he had
never met over the Land's need.

And Sunder chose to preserve the life of two strangers over what
he had been raised to believe was the right thing to do.

And how many Gravelingas do you think could have done this?

The Raver knotted green ill at Sunder's throat. "Where is Thomas
Covenant?"

Sunder's eyes were blind from fear and compulsion. They bulged
in their sockets. But he did not answer. Locking his jaws, he held
himself himself still.

The Raver's fingers tightened. "Speak."

The muscles of Sunder's jaw pulled together, clenched as if
he were trying to break his teeth, grind his voice into silence
forever. As the force at his throat grew stronger, those muscles
became distinct, rigid, etched against the darkness of his fear
and strangulation. It seemed impossible that he could so grit
his teeth without tearing the ligatures of his jaw. But he did not
answer. Sweat seemed to burst from his pores like bone marrow
squeezed trhough his skin. Yet his rictus held.

No Lord could have done any better.

People like Sunder are what made the Land worth fighting
for.

[Fist and Faith]

Extremely well said!!!!

Plus, without any hint of Kevin's Lore, or help of any kind - less of either than Mhoram had - Sunder learned how to use the krill! How incredibly intuitive and insightful he must be to have matched the Old Lords in this way!

[kevinswatch]

Yeah, I always liked Sunder as a character. He sort of does remind me of Mhoram. And besides my ol' pal Pitchwife, Sunder's probably my favorite character in the 2nd Chronicles. It'll be interesting to see what his part will be in the next series...if any.-jay

[Dromond]

Sunder rocks! I'm sure somewhere TC likens him to Mhoram!

[Lord Mhoram]

Sunder has yet to prove himself to be par with Mhoram, imo. Like defending Revelstone, for example. Or killing a Raver.

[CovenantJr]

Being Mhoram's equal doesn't necessarily mean performing similar feats or having similar skills. Personally, I don't peg Sunder as High Lord material. A Lord perhaps. But then, I've never really liked him

[caamora]

Good points, everyone. It would seem that Sunder would indeed be Lord material.

[danlo]

All the Lords were product of their times--I can't compare Sunder 2 Mhoram just as I can't compare Mhoram to Kevin. Mhoram was beholden 2 the Oath of Peace, Kevin wasn't, any way of facing Despite will be a totally new approach 4 Sunder. His formed character does begin 2 approach Mhoram's, what's left of the Land couldn't have a better friend. I don't kno if he will become a new-new Lord but he'd b a real good advisor 2 his son...we'll see, eh, SRD?

[Fist and Faith]

Well I don't care what any of you nay-sayers... uh... say. pthththththth~~~~

Sunder's world was being torn apart. Nothing, nothing, that he thought was true about his life and world were true. Covenant tore down everything there was. But his reaction was, "I must find some truth to take the place of the truth you destroy" and face down fears that were pounded into him from the day he was born. No, his hadn't proven himself in battle, but, in character and deed, he had proven himself in every way that's important to me.

But, impressive as it was, I wouldn't think any less of Mhoram without his Victory than I do with it.
-A Raver touched him, and was daunted!
-He summoned a Forestal, and got it to do what he wanted.
-He sent a message to Callindrill, though Callindrill did not have any lomillialor.

Sunder's feats seem equally impressive to me.
-Resists a Stone-armed Raver.
-Figures out how to use the krill and orcrest with virtually no clues.
-Resists despair in the face of crushing horror, and assumes the responsibility that is his, though he has ample opportunity to give it away.


But maybe we don't need to be thinking about whether or not Sunder would be a good High Lord. This thread's title says "Successor." KaosArcana can tell me if I'm not in keeping with his intent, but I'm thinking that Sunder can be Mhoram's successor without being a Lord at all. Can't he be the strength and heart of the Land in other ways?

[Infelice]

Yep. Sunder is an incredible character. I can definitely see him as being a very capable "Post Sunbane Lord", maybe even High Lord or leader. We haven't met any other characters suitable for the High Lord's job yet, but there may be some out there. But as Lord Mhoram said, can he leave Andelain?

Danlo makes a good point about the Lords being a product of their own times. They each learned to use the Earthpower a certain way....Kevin was not conditioned by the Oath of Peace, Mhoram did operate under that condition. I doubt that either of those two Lords would be able to access the Earthpower to the same effect during the Sunbane ravaged times in which Sunder lived.

Regardless of that....Sunder does seem to have the same qualities of strength, courage, insight and indomitable will that would see him as an admirable candidate for High Lord.

I'm editng this because F&F, seems to have slipped his post in just ahead of me.

You make a good point there F&F. Whose to say that there will even be Lords? The land definitely needs a body of indiviuals that are charged with the duties of healing and caring for the Land. Just because there were Lords in the past, doesn't mean there are going to be Lords after the Sunbane.

[KaosArcana]

Fist:

But maybe we don't need to be thinking about whether or not Sunder would be a good High Lord. This thread's title says "Successor." KaosArcana can tell me if I'm not in keeping with his intent, but I'm thinking that Sunder can be Mhoram's successor without being a Lord at all. Can't he be the strength and heart of the Land in other ways?

I don't know if the people who guide the destiny of humanity in the Land
after the Sunbane will ever take on the title of Lord. I was mainly trying
to say that I believe that Sunder has the stuff-- the greatness-- to be
equal to Mhoram... in another place and time, Sunder could have been
a great and renowed High Lord.

[danlo]

Don't 4get 2 give a little credit 2 Nassic, his "mad dad" 4 being almost the only shread of connection 2 the ancient history and ideas of the Land. If Nassic hadn't planted some "seeds of doubt" in Sunder's head I highly doubt he would ever have the real will 2 change. Almost biblical in an odd way--those lunatic prophets swinging their legs over cliffs and dreaming up all sorts of wild stuff like, er, Armageddon....

[Fist and Faith]

True enough. I'd love to see the story of Nassic's life.

[Revan]

True enough. I'd love to see the story of Nassic's life.

Why?