The Congery-Mirrors, Translating, Masters and stuff

[Skyweir]

..

.. I dont think it was me at all .. I got 3x mails from HLM twice already today .. and noted the same thing happened to him on the TCTC forum .. so there!

lol

.. and if it was me .. it was entirely intentional!!! and done purely for emphasis!!

Welcome .. Welcome .. Welcome .. Lady G!!

[Lady Genni]

Thank you M'Lords! So glad to be in good company.

Here is something that you may be able to help me with. In the forward of MN Donaldson writes that both Geraden and Teresa are under an enchantment. I've always felt like that wasn't clarified. Was Geraden's enchantment his puppyish antics? Was Teresa's her feelings of fading? And at what point in the story was the enchantment really broken? At the end of the first book when Geraden went through the mirror and she started to figure things out in the dungen? Or was it just a gradual disenchantment that happened through out the story?

I can see what Donaldson was talking about but I can't really trace the theme through the story. Also he refers to Geraden as the "breaker" of enchantments...her's or his own too?

[Skyweir]

mmm .. that is so interesting .. I cant quite figure to what SRD is refering.

Enchantments? wouldnt that imply that someone or something has placed this 'enchantment' on them?

Does he refer to there own personal lack of confidence or self-esteem? Maybe this was an enchantment .. as you say Geraden's puppyish ways .. and his clumsiness! Maybe spurred on by a simple lack of self-belief .. and so to Terisa .. her sense of fading .. of not being important enough to be of substance .. is this part of her enchantment .. her own lack of self-belief??

Does SRD mean .. an enchantment in terms of a curse or a bewitching .. or is he using this term metaphorically to represent their innate or long experienced sense of self-depreciating and derogatory self-assessment.

I really do not know .. I will have to go and read the forward you refer to and get back on this with some thoughts.

[DirectorDios]

Forgive my hopeless negativism, but we fans of SRD (myself included) always seem to get into discussions of analogies-to-stories. That is all fine and well for purely conversational purposes, but has ANYONE ever heard or read something attributed to Donaldson himself that draws a correlation from todays world and events to any of his novels topics or story lines? Other than inspiration drawn from an opera for the general idea for The Gap series, I've never come across anything and I wonder if we don't put too much time and effort into trying to guess at what SRD perhaps had in mind or what his inspiration for his stories are. IMHO

[Ryzel]

I guess this is a bit late but since noone else has written about it yet I will sum up my impressions about the art and craft of imagery.

Primarily the art of imagery is the ability to create mirrors that show somewhere else, and furthermore this implies the ability to use mirrors to translate something either from where the mirror is showing or to where the mirror is showing.

There are as far as I can remember several types of imager:
Apprentices work to learn the craft but should potentially have the full command of mirrors that they themselves create.
Apts are just senior apprentices that have shown themselves to be capable of creating and using mirrors.
Masters are fully capable imagers that can both create and use their own mirrors.

Note that these three types are what makes up the congery, and all these types of imagers can only control mirrors that they themselves have made.

The ability to make use of mirrors that other people have created is what makes an imager into an adept. There are as far as I know only three adepts in MN: Havelock, Geraden and Terisa.

One further distinction is the one of arch imager. An arch imager is apparently someone capable of using flat glass without going mad. This is the only distinction and only Terisa demonstrates this ability if I remember correctly.

Additionally there is the ability that both Terisa and Geraden has to translate to actually change the image in the mirror, with flat and curved glass respectively. This ability is apparently unknown in Mordant.

The difference between curved glass and flat glass is that flat glass shows pictures of places in the world in which the mirror is located. It is this fact that somehow makes the flat mirrors dangerous and it might be only because Terisa is from another world that she has the ability to withstand this effect. Curved mirrors show other worlds and can be used safely.

[arabisha]

Interesting topic. I enjoyed the way Donaldson named these ideas. Imagery and translation. Being a lit nerd it appealed to me. I always thought of imagery as a way of writing or speaking that conjures up images in the minds of others (or yourself), primarily through engaging the senses.
Translation in language is converting one language into another though its imprecise. You can have translations that go word for word or translations that try to capture as much of the idea of the sentence as possible. Each language has its own magic and weaknesses. Orwell said that man is limited in his thinking due to the dependency on language. Er maybe I garbled that. I mean, our thought processes are framed by our language, use of words for ideas. This is why in 1984 the villians tried to destroy or severly limit language itself as a way of controlling people. On the more positive side of things CS Lewis wondered about and longed to hear and see the original language.
I always wanted Donaldson to publish a work of poetry because his use of words is so unusual and quite charming.

Anyhow, the idea that imagery creates new worlds and that you could then retrieve and interact with it is appealing/frighting/fascinating!
To do so would require you to translate the things/people whatever from the created world. In essence it what a writer does. Or any aritist I suppose. I could see that metaphors would be a great tool for translation.

[Dragonlily]

I always wanted Donaldson to publish a work of poetry because his use of words is so unusual and quite charming.

As prose poetry, yes. He can knock me over with a feather. Writing in poetic form? His songs are the only parts of his writing which I find uninspiring. I don't think his talent was meant to be confined to poetic structure.

[arabisha]

I wouldn't think of it as limiting his talent to poetic structure at all. Only a concentration of talent into a shorter form. I remember he once likened short stories to champagne or some such while novels were beer. In that case poetry would be what? single malt scotch?
Seriously, I bet if he wanted he could write some amazing verse. Highly focussed and with a beauty of sound and image and rhythm.

My earlier post made me start thinking of the old debate of whether imagery actually creates new worlds or if it only opens a window to existing worlds.

[Dragonlily]

It's a personal thing. I see poetic structure as a cage.

I bet if he wanted he could write some amazing verse. Highly focussed and with a beauty of sound and image and rhythm.

If he were inspired that way, certainly. But his songs always strike me that he had to work for them, like they don't come naturally. To me, the larger his canvas, the better his instinctively epic sweep can express itself.

[arabisha]

Maybe. I'm not saying that I would prefer it over novels. As far as that goes I'd much rather have a novel than a book of short stories, and a series as opposed to a stand alone novel. I would never give up the rich characters we get that way.

But, I would love to see verse and it would not need to be any particular form. There are much fewer words used so that his talent for language and of using words out of their normal (tired) context would shine. That and I love the SOUND of language. The rhythm of consonants the ringing of vowels, patterns of music in words expressing an idea. Poetry actually is less constricting in this area than prose as it does not require rules of grammar and step logic to work. It is more intuitive. If poetry isn't his thing thats ok but as a lover of words I can't see how he couldn't not play with, explore, and enjoy their sounds.

[Wounded Rainbow]

Sorry if my post is off in this thread - I just couldn't find a proper one for the question that has been nagging me for a considerable time now. Terisa wishes for a mirror to fight off her sensation of fading and keeps rearranging the oil lamps in her room to get a reflection from her window, but it's too dark outside. Well, I know from experience that the darker outside, the sharper the reflection. Could there be any hidden reason as to why it doesn't work in Terisa's case?

[danlo]

I'll have to really research that--but possibly the same properties in Mordant's sand that allow for mirror imaging do not allow for window glass to reflect...

[IrrationalSanity]

As I see it the hierarchy of Imagers is as follows:

Apt: Short for apprentice. Apts go through several stages, starting with such mundane chores as stoking blast furnaces and measuring tinct, to making small mirrors under the guidance of the Masters. At some point it becomes clear whether or not an Apt has any talent for glass, and many wash out. If they continue on, they are taught the various skills they need, and once they reach a certain level of proficiency, they are nominated and named to the rank/office of...

Master: A Master is an Imager who can consistently make and work with mirrors, and is accepted as a full peer and member of the Congery of Imagers. Of course, even Masters have varying levels of skill and success with glass, but it can be assumed that a Master can at least make "successful" mirrors on a regular basis. Even so, a great deal of imagry is guesswork, trial, and error.

Adept: An Adept is an Imager who is capable of working with mirrors they did not create. Due to the mutual distrust among imagers, and the resultant reluctance to allow others to experiment with "their" mirrors, there is some uncertainty whether one can learn to be an Adept, or if you must be born to it. What is clear, though, is that very few imagers have "become" Adept. Havelock, Terisa, Gereden, and Eremis are the only certain and documented Adepts. It is highly probable that Gilbur and Vagel are as well.

Arch Imager: An Arch Imager, on the other hand, it is generally agreed is born, not made. An Arch Imager is immune to the mentally destructive properties of Flat Glass. Vagel and Terisa are the only known Arch Imagers.

Flat Glass: A fundamental distinction exists between "flat glass", and a "normal" or "curved" mirror. Flat mirrors show locations within the "real world", and curved mirrors show "other" worlds. While most imagers can create and translate with either kind of mirror, flat mirrors are very dangerous. Although the mechanism is not fully understood, most believe the power of translation within a single world disrupts the mental processes of a normal person being translated, resulting in insanity. If one has the misfortune of seeing oneself in a flat glass, even if one is not an imager, a psychic "feedback loop" is established, locking away and ultimately destroying a person's very consciousness.

Unique Gifts: In addition to these generalities, certain Imagers have manifested abilities beyond the ken of most Masters...

Image Shifting: This is the ability to make a mirror translate something other than what is in its normal image. A mirror, by virtue of its coloring, tinct, surface texture, and edge shape, is tuned to a particular location. A "shifting" Imager can impose his or her own will upon the image in a mirror, and force it to show and translate somewhere completely different. Using this talent, one can even make a curved mirror show a scene within the "real" world, and allow people to be translated without going insane. Gereden and Terisa are the only known Image Shifters.

Sense Translation: When one is within the image of a mirror that is open for translation, one feels the sensation of a sliver of cold iron through one's gut. Terisa is the only Imager known to be able to sense a translation.

Tele Shifting: This is the ability to work with a mirror at a distance. Both Gereden and Terisa have demonstrated the ability to shift the image in a mirror at a distance. It is uncertain whether they could actually initialte a translation remotely, as in both documented cases the translation itself was initiated by others, though it is likely.

Glass Translation: This is less an ability than a discovery - Master Eremis discovered an oxidate that allows glass to be translated through glass. With out this preparation, the mirror being translated shatters to powder.

Formulaic Mirror Image: Another discovery, though there may be an element of talent – As previously stated, mirror formation for most Imagers is largely a matter of trial and error. The Arch Imager Vagel, however, has discovered how to accurately predict the image of a mirror design, and apparently can even design a mirror "to order", especially flat mirrors, to show any desired location.

Speed of Gilbur: There is no indication of whether this is a talent, discovery, or just because he is very strong, but Gilbur can make mirrors in accordance with Vagel’s recipes very rapidly. Gilbur appears to be the mirror factory for Eremis’ cabal.

It is because of this that we can safely assume that both Eremis and Vagel are Adept, as they must both use the mirrors that Gilbur produces from Vagel’s instructions. Since practically everyone in the story with powerful Imagery talents is also Adept, it is probable that Gilbur is as well, though this is never stated (or even implied) by the text.

[Vector]

It is because of this that we can safely assume that both Eremis and Vagel are Adept, as they must both use the mirrors that Gilbur produces from Vagel’s instructions. Since practically everyone in the story with powerful Imagery talents is also Adept, it is probable that Gilbur is as well, though this is never stated (or even implied) by the text.

It has been a while since I last read Mordant's Need - but it seems to me that it was not clear that Eremis could use Gilbur's mirrors as both Gilbur and Vagel could certainly do. I think simply the mirrors that Eremis used were simply Eremis' own mirrors.

I could be mistaken, of course... Do you have an example where it was clearly Gilbur's mirror that Eremis is using ?

[IrrationalSanity]

A couple of places spring to mind, though I don't have the books immediately to hand.

In Eremis' room, SRD mentions that the mirror they watch the battle on is his copy of that glass. While I suppose he could have made it himself, it is just as likely in the story's context that Gilbur just made more than one - one for each member of the cabal.

In the other instance, it is one of the other characters (Barsonage?) who realizes that Eremis must be an Adept, because he suddenly realized Eremis used one of the mirrors from the "captured collection" (the slug mirror) to clear the rubble after Darsint's arrival. There is a slight narrative conflict here because on the battlefield King Joyse assumes Eremis is the creator of that mirror, and wonders how a 10 year old (which Eremis would have been the first time the slug was summoned) could already be such a powerful imager. Barsonage's assumption makes much more sense in the entire context, and he just had not had the opportunity to tell the King about his epiphany.

[Vector]

A couple of places spring to mind, though I don't have the books immediately to hand.

In Eremis' room, SRD mentions that the mirror they watch the battle on is his copy of that glass. While I suppose he could have made it himself, it is just as likely in the story's context that Gilbur just made more than one - one for each member of the cabal.

In the other instance, it is one of the other characters (Barsonage?) who realizes that Eremis must be an Adept, because he suddenly realized Eremis used one of the mirrors from the "captured collection" (the slug mirror) to clear the rubble after Darsint's arrival. There is a slight narrative conflict here because on the battlefield King Joyse assumes Eremis is the creator of that mirror, and wonders how a 10 year old (which Eremis would have been the first time the slug was summoned) could already be such a powerful imager. Barsonage's assumption makes much more sense in the entire context, and he just had not had the opportunity to tell the King about his epiphany.

Well, I guess it could be - I just felt that I would have noticed if evidence pointed to Eremis being an Adept. Could be I just forgot, the last time I read it was 2 1/2 years ago (my fourth read).

I realize I also need to get new copies since I had lent mine out some time ago and never got them back (and they were my original hardcover editions - though in not the best shape)...

[Myste]

In Ch. 51, "Things Men Do With Mirrors," Eremis admits to Terisa that he actually created the slugbeast mirror by accident early in his career. When his stash was raided by King Joyse, he gave it up willingly and joined the Congery.

In the same chapter, during the battle, Eremis sees that the slugbeast is dead, and wonders when Gilbur will act. I think that Eremis (working with Vagel) can formulate mirrors that show what he wants them to. Gilbur can manufacture the mirrors quickly. With Vagel & Eremis designing them, and Gilbur--who is in their employ--making them, they can do anything. Why else would Eremis keep Gilbur--who is an extremely unpleasant, inarticulate, and grubby person--around, except that he needs Gilbur to translate from the mirrors Gilbur has created?

[Vector]

In Ch. 51, "Things Men Do With Mirrors," Eremis admits to Terisa that he actually created the slugbeast mirror by accident early in his career. When his stash was raided by King Joyse, he gave it up willingly and joined the Congery.

In the same chapter, during the battle, Eremis sees that the slugbeast is dead, and wonders when Gilbur will act. I think that Eremis (working with Vagel) can formulate mirrors that show what he wants them to. Gilbur can manufacture the mirrors quickly. With Vagel & Eremis designing them, and Gilbur--who is in their employ--making them, they can do anything. Why else would Eremis keep Gilbur--who is an extremely unpleasant, inarticulate, and grubby person--around, except that he needs Gilbur to translate from the mirrors Gilbur has created?

Yes, thanks Myste, this is pretty much the way I had perceived the roles of Gilbur, Eremis and Vagel.

[IrrationalSanity]

I will stand corrected on the slug mirror, with the proviso that this is Eremis talking, and anything he says must be treated with a degree of suspicion. As far as waiting for Gilbur to act, well, Eremis is in his room with Terisa, and is waiting for the "right" moment to translate the King into madness.

He keeps both Gilbur and Vagel around because he needs their respective talents. That doesn't mean that he can't use the mirrors himself, but it does mean he can't make them as quickly or as accurately.

This is encouraging me to try digging my copies out of storage to look up other clues. In the back of my mind is that there is some statement that requires Eremis being able to use the cabal's mirrors in order for it to make sense.

[Myste]

It's definitely worth it, IS. Let us know what you find!