What's up with the Kerry supporters still?

[Cail]

My question is when did things start being this partisan? I really believe that both parties were scared poopless by Perot, and that made them work overtime to galvanize the base.

[Lord Mhoram]

Cail,

I think perhaps you are overestimating Mr. Perot's influence. I think this problem has been around longer than that.

[Cail]

Well certainly partisanship has, but to the extreme we're seeing it now? I certainly don't remember that with Carter.

[Lord Mhoram]

Cail,

Politics goes in cycles. Look at the Hamiltonians and the Jeffersonians. The Lincoln-Douglas Debates. Extreme partisanship has always resurfaced at some point in American history, IMO. This is just another stage in our political history.

[Cail]

Good point.

[dlbpharmd]

The Dems hated Reagan, but I don't recall a great deal of partisanship during GHWB's term. I think it really began during Clinton, at least this cycle as LM mentioned above.

[Sheriff Lytton]

Wow. Busy thread. Anyway, a brief trip back in time to earlier today...

Nice.
I'm not shur waht you done just said, Sheriff but it done sound like gross generalization ta me.

Keep talking like that though!
I can't wait to see the Democratic Party self destruct embracing thinking like that.

...You and the Sheriff both say that the Democrats lost the election because the "average voter" was too stupid and voted for Bush.

I've been hearing this from most Democrats since Kerry lost.

Telling people that they are stupid is not a good way to draw them into your party.

1) The Democrats are most certainly not my party. As I've stated before I'm pretty much apolitical in that I despise all politicians equally for being the grubby little self serving reptiles that they are.

2) Being a citizen of the UK, I really couldn't give two hoots if either the Democrat or Republican parties self destruct - the US is welcome to both of them as far as I'm concerned.

3) Please don't limit my comments to the "average voter" - I'd go so far as to say that the thought processes of the majority of humans in both the UK and US are pretty damn shallow anyway, it's just that politics is a field where this trend is more pronounced. Which leads me neatly to:-

4) In case you hadn't noticed, elections ceased to be about politics a long time ago. The cult of personality is what gets votes these days, and that's why Gore and Kerry lost the last two elections. It had nothing to do with Bush being a political genius, it's quite simply that he has more charisma than those two stiffs put together, regardless of policy.

That's why Reagan and Clinton both served two full terms in office despite the best efforts of their opponents to depose them, and that's why Bush got his second term. Beacuse they had the face and the personality that appealed to the most people.

It's what the late, great Hunter S. Thompson called a "grim meathook reality of life".

Electioneering's a dirty business, and if you think for one moment that the people who plan successful election campaigns have a high opinion of the intelligence of the "average voter" then you're either fooling yourself or you're still young enough to give politicians the benefit of the doubt. I'm afraid decades spent closely observing politicians doing what politicians do have deprived me of that facility.

Good luck in your struggle with reality though HLT

EDITS: Spelling, punctuation and grammar, the content remains unchanged.

[Cail]

(as we go skating off-topic yet again)

I don't recall the Dems really hating Regan until Iran-Contra. Am I mis-remembering?

[dlbpharmd]

It's hard for me to say, since that was so long ago and I was in jr. high and high school then. I remember Iran-Contra but never really understood it then. I just remember alot of criticism over "voodoo economics" and "trickle down economics."

[Brinn]

I could have been convinced to vote for Lieberman...He was strong on national defense.

[High Lord Tolkien]

(as we go skating off-topic yet again)

I don't recall the Dems really hating Regan until Iran-Contra. Am I mis-remembering?

Not really mis-remembering.
So many Democrats voted for Reagan and approved his policies that it was a mixed bag at first.

Reagan was one of the greatest Presidents in history, imho.

But the media called him an "actor", lots of "Bedtime for Bonzo" jokes, the ubiquitous "dumb" word (I think every Republican President has been labeled "dumb" for the past 25 years!), he was branded as cutting numerous programs although the only "cuts" he made was a reduction in the percentage of spending increases (only Dems would call a budget increase of 5% rather than 9% a budget "cut").

Iran Contra was a definite step up in the hate factor though.
It was pretty rough at the time especially near the end of his final term but by today's standards Reagan did alright.

[Cail]

That's what I remember HLT.

Hard to believe I was 12 when he was elected.

[High Lord Tolkien]

That's what I remember HLT.

Hard to believe I was 12 when he was elected.

Yeah, me too!
I've read several of his biographies recently.
He was a fasinating man to say the least.
My favorite so far is "Reagan : A Life in Letters"
It's a collection of some of his personal letters that he sent throughout his life. It's wonderful stuff.
He was a prolific writer!
I wish I could remember the other titles I've read but I give them to my brother after I read them.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Good luck in your struggle with reality though HLT

Thanks and continued success on your amazing streak of meaningless posts.

[ChoChiyo]

[

Reagan was one of the greatest Presidents in history, imho.

Sweet Jesus, give me strength!

I didn't HATE Reagan, but I scorned him thoroughly. He was a nice old man--but he was also a rich man's arse kisser and didn't give two whoops in hell about the common (ie working) man!

Reaganomics was the beginning of economic despair in this country. His trickle down theory was bullshit. There is no other term for it. Nothing trickled down to anyone in my socio-economic class!

Cuts in education under his administration were horrific and bone deep. EDIT: As to considering a 5% increase instead of a 9% increase a cut--well, when inflation is 15%, it's a CUT, my dear. (I don't remember the actual % of inflation--but that's where the issue was.)

I will never forget the quote that perhaps the American farmer should be exported when they wanted a fair price for their crops--That alone was enough to make me livid.

And does anyone remember ketchup as a vegetable?

Falling asleep during cabinet meetings? Denying he said something on 60 minutes and acting insulted when they replayed the TAPE of him saying it??

Arms for hostages ring a bell?

And of course we have the nefarious Central America/Angola things. Doesn't anyone else remember Efrain Rios Montt? Jonas Savimbi? I don't even want to think about the number of people who died because Ronnie had a "pretty neat" idea.

I realize this isn't a bash Reagan thread, but I just cannot stand idly by and hear that without a response. Jefferson was a great president. Lincoln was a great president. Roosevelt was a great president. We need another New Deal NOW.

I can't believe that there are actually people in the country who want to put that ... creature.... on Mount Rushmore. *gag*

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion...

But I was *there* in the 80's when that git was president. I was trying to get started in my career and being cut from my position "budgetary concerns" every third year--right before I could be granted tenure.

So, go ahead and slap me over the nose for being off topic and shining the cold factual light of day on the Reagon hero worship.

"one of the greats" >shudder<

[dlbpharmd]

Nice little rant, there. Of course, I disagree with practically everything you had to say. But, like you said, you're entitled to your opinion.

[ChoChiyo]

Disagreement is fine. SHOW me how I'm wrong. SHOW me how he championed the working man/woman. If you can.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Roosevelt was a great president. We need another New Deal NOW.

[gag! choke! cough!]

Roosevelt didn't have one good economic bone in his body.

Another New Deal?
You want unemployment at 18% like it was between 1933 and 1940?
Fixed prices for goods and wage earnings?
At a time when competition was DESPERATELY needed?
Destroy food and livestock to artificially keep prices high at a time of massive unemployment and when people needed cheap food the most?
New Deal labor laws added over a million unemployed in 1938.
The Roosevelt economy was so messed up that business and investors stopped investing
The poorest region in America, the South, received the least attention from FDR's WPA.
And FDR's court packing scheme makes Nixon look like a jaywalker in comparison.

WWII didn't end the Depression either.
Unemployment was low then because 11 million people joined the armed forces!
The economy only picked up when the soldiers came home at the end of the War and PRIVATE businesses started producing goods again.

(how's THAT for an off topic rant when somebody praises FDR and the New Deal?)

[Sheriff Lytton]

Thanks and continued success on your amazing streak of meaningless posts.

LOLOL ! 10/10 - I like it, and I most certainly walked right into that one.

HLT, I've been convinced for some time now that a lot of your posts are akin to a satirical version of devil's advocate.

Is this the case or do you really believe it when you say things like you consider Ronald Reagan to be one of the greatest presidents in history ?

I'm not being provocative here, I honestly can't tell.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Thanks and continued success on your amazing streak of meaningless posts.

LOLOL ! 10/10 - I like it, and I most certainly walked right into that one.

LOL! I had to respond somehow!

HLT, I've been convinced for some time now that a lot of your posts are akin to a satirical version of devil's advocate.

Is this the case or do you really believe it when you say things like you consider Ronald Reagan to be one of the greatest presidents in history ?

I'm not being provocative here, I honestly can't tell.

No, I like to post with humor but I mean what I say.