Am I the only one...

[Skeletal Grace]

... who thinks the books are becoming rather repetitive?

I am fearing he's becoming another Jordan in the sense that the characters are becoming too much alike already and in the sense that the story has come to a stand still.

It's the little kidnapped kid, over and over... Kids that are between 5 and 14 years old and leading armies mind you. My kid is 9 and she can't lead herself out the door without tripping on her shoe laces or even form a grammatically correct sentence, and she is NOT even retarded, just a regular kid. Maybe they grow super kids in Martin-land?

And they all become big fearless leaders...

Spoiler: humhumhummanahum becomes the leader of the hummunum? C'mon! That's just stupid.

I just can't relate to little kids. I'm sorry... Being 33 years old I find myself drifting towards fiction in general (and fantasy in particular) with believable characters I can at least recognize something of myself in. If I can't relate to it I am not that interested. Sorry...

That's why I never liked Jordan. I want to smack every single one of his character in every single book (except maybe Logain and Lan) because they are just so gay. A bunch of lame ass scowling braid yanking wool headed chit-chatters with too many pages and too little action.

Fine if you're 12 I guess...

Don't get me wrong... I like the Martin books way more than I like most fantasy series, I just hope he doesn't fall into the endless series-trap.

What I do like the most so far is how he kills off main characters for every other page. That is a morbid stroke of genius that I love in a writer. You can't get too comfortable with your favorite because he might end up on the chopping block in the next chapter. (Unlike Jordan who tries to keep every single sidekick ever introduced to the story, and resurrect the ones who unfortunately had to die. More names than in the friggin' bible.)

Killing main characters is great for the suspense... I'm morose like that.

Martin's a great writer and would love to see the story pick up in Feast for Crowes.

[Encryptic]

I can't say I totally agree with you here. I'd have to say Song of Ice and Fire has just gotten better and better.

Bran and Arya for one, are still juvenile in a lot of ways, even if they are caught up in some pretty momentous events. I wouldn't say they're any different from kids these days in that way. They're certainly not leader material at this point, by any means.

Robb, even though he's only 15-16, is the oldest son of a powerful lord and would have been raised to follow in his father's footsteps. I'd imagine that would lend a bit of maturity to him and give him some kind of "presence" and ability to lead people. Which is not to say that he can't screw up as teenagers tend to do.

Spoiler

He did marry that girl from The Crag for love, rather than making a viable political marriage.

Furthermore, the world they're growing up in is still very much a medieval world where kids aren't sheltered from the harsh realities like they are today. Kids are still going to be kids, but I'd imagine that you would have to grow up pretty quickly in order to survive in that kind of world. Look at Jon, for instance.

I will agree that Martin's penchant for killing off major players has made this VERY intriguing.

Mind you, I can't say I disagree with your opinion of Jordan. I've gotten pretty burned out on the series after Book 10 and don't really have any interest in following it until he actually finishes it.

[Roland of Gilead]

I disagree, primarily because Martin has patterned his work after our own medieval history, and children, particularly children of nobility, had to grow up very quickly. They weren't coddled as we do our own children in today's society.

As for killing off main characters, yes, Martin is the master of that little plot trick. However, I still maintain that four characters will survive at least until near the end of the final volume:

Arya, Daenerys, Tyrion and Jon.

As Baretta would say, "You can take that to the bank and that's the name of that tune."

[duchess of malfi]

Back in the old days, such as the era that inspired Martin (War of the Roses & early Tudors -- I see a great deal of the days of Henry 8 in ASOIAF) -- teenagers were considered adults -- the girls being married off soon after they started their periods, etc. Even as recently as the Napoleonic era people whom we would consider to be little boys were sent out on British Naval ships (during wartime!!) as apprentice officers.

The prolonged and protected childhoods we have in our society today are actually a rather recent invention.

[Skeletal Grace]

Yes. You all make excellent points and if these books float your boats, I'm all happy for you.

I enjoy Martin's way of writing very much, I love his morbid approach to main events and I appreciate how it's basically a simple medieval story with some clever twists...

I can't stand the characters though. They kill the reading experience for me. I do not enjoy reading a series of books narrated from a herd of children's perspectives. One child.. OK... Maybe even two... But a whole royal kindergarten and grammarschool of snot nosed kids, spoiled brats, fumbling pre-teens and recess bullies?

Araya with her gay little sword. What's she gonna do? Make people trip on her, breaking their neck in the fall?

The lame little toddler and his redneck friends... Not interesting...

Jon and his teenage endeavours in pubertal love in the mountains... Blah. It's like Adrian Mole in King Arthur's Court.

That's just three out of many many child main charcaters.

I know that people in the good old days had to grow up faster to take on the duties of the farm or the court, but even though they were considered to be adults physically they were still children emotionally and mentally. I can't relate to their little kiddie worries and problems. It bores me to tears.

And what's with the endless kidnappings? Isn't that theme getting a little played now?

Different folks, different strokes I guess. I like fantasy written for grownups. I don't like the Eddings and the Jordan kiddie stuff.

I have a feeling I would enjoy Martin a lot more if he started writing the way he could for adults instead of writing the way he's doing now for a younger, and probably more lucrative, audience. I see in his writing a taste for the morbid and he's got a darkness inside him just waiting to pour into a more macabre story, NOT suitable for children... Can't wait for that.

We'll see what he does in his next series...

(These are just my two cents of course, and you can take that to the bank while you're at it.)

[I'm Murrin]

You think this stuff is "suitable for children"? Bah. Young characters don't mean it's for children.

Anyhoo - by the end of aFfC, they'll all be adults but Bran and Arya, who'll be teenagers. And there are only six young PoVs in the first place.

[Variol Farseer]

One of the first scenes in ASOIAF features a small boy catching a brother and sister in flagrante committing incest, whereupon they try to kill him by pushing him out of a tall building.

This is not written for kids, no matter what age the characters are.

I'll agree that the kids in the series aren't particularly interesting as characters, and it detracts from the story. In fact, I'd say the series would be better if about half the innumerable viewpoint characters had been stood up against a wall and shot before the first book got started. Just when I find myself reading about a character I actually care about, GRRM drops the curtain with a blatant cliffhanger, and I have to suffer through 200 pages of court intrigue, battles that solve nothing, and roundabout tortuous whatnot, before I ever see that character again. Sometimes, by the time that character reappears, I've forgotten why I was so interested.

The Wheel of Time is soap opera for the kiddies. A Song of Ice and Fire strikes me as soap opera for the splatterpunk crowd. Martin does this kind of thing a lot better than Jordan, but they both have the fundamental weakness of soap opera: it takes for ever for the plot to get anywhere. 'Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.'

No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney.

[duchess of malfi]

Just out of curiosity have you tried some of Martin's other books without young POV characters?

Fevre Dream is the one of the finest explorations of friendship and trust across racial/species boundaries I have ever read.

Dying of the Light is set on a dying world, and is a brilliantly written novel that explores loss.

[Variol Farseer]

I'm not sure which one of us you're asking, Duchess, but I've read some of Martin's short fiction and found it very good and frequently brilliant. And ASOIAF is brilliant in spots. It's just that there's too much heavy slogging in between those spots to suit me.

[Skeletal Grace]

Thanks for the tip on the short fiction of his. I will definitely check it out.

I just never enjoyed books with all children main characters. I don't mind them being there, I just don't want to see the story through their eyes almost exclusively. Even though the story might not be for kids it is not speaking to me as an adult either.

If it was just for instance Jon Snow and the paralyzed kid representing the children, and then a whole bunch of more standout interesting adult characters the books would have been ten times better, and leave more room for the macabre. I would like to see more Jamie Lannister and less kids fighting with wooden swords. The tempo would probably get a boost by this too since it's getting a bit repetitive reading about yet another Stark child's trials and tribulations as a hostage.

You're right Variol. It is a slow motion soap opera... "The Von Trapps - The Good and Medieval"

It's also worth noting that there is a whole lot of incestual love and pre-teen sexual innuendos going on... Is Martin trying to tell us something? Hope not...

[Ainulindale]

Arya, Daenerys, Tyrion and Jon

Arya worries me. Martin has proved that his foreshadowing should not be taken for granted, and there are some notable instances that would lead one believe Arya will not survive the series. But we will see:)

[Roland of Gilead]

Skeletal, you make a lot of interesting points, and you've even swayed me a little, at least with regard to Bran and Arya. Not Jon, though.

But anyway, one thing you threw in there just had me laughing my butt off.

Martin's "next series."

NEXT SERIES!!!!????? Do you really believe this man is ever going to write another series? In any genre?

My God, he'll be lucky to finish this one before he croaks. Almost nine years already and he's what, barely half finished?

There ain't going to be another series, for adult, macabre, brilliant, or otherwise.

[Skeletal Grace]

There ain't going to be another series, for adult, macabre, brilliant, or otherwise.

I hope you're wrong kid. For all our sake.

I would hate for him to become another Jordan, just content with spinning the wheel of time like a goddamn parrot superglued to a 45 on repeat.

[Variol Farseer]

I don't think it's necessary for GRRM to 'become another Jordan' for there not to be another series like this. He's not a young man, or particularly a well one. And it is seldom given to any one writer to spend 15 years or so on a single story more than once.

My bet is that he'll take some time off when this is done, then go back to writing the tight-crafted single books that he does so well.

[OsRavan]

mm by book 3 bran and arya are the only two pov's that can be considered children still robb (besides from being dead) was married and a king. as was arya.

if we look at a list of the pov's we have in the books and hteir ages either at death or in book 3 (and not counting prolouge pov's all of whom are adults btw)

Ned- 35
Cat- 34
Robb-16-17 when he dies
jon- 17
Sansa 14
Arya- 12
Bran- 10
Theon-24
Tyrion- 27ish
Jaime- 32
Dany-16
samwell- 22iirc
Davos- 30 something

add in for feast:
cercie-32
Arianna-20 something
Asha- 20 something
Aerion-40 something

so even if we say 16 and odler are adults. which is true for this era. then most of our povs are adult ones. just arya bran and maybe sansa considered as kids.

as for being kidnapped btw. that only happens to one character. arya. sansa is kidnapped. she chooses to escape. shes a pretty willing partner to LF in book 3.

[bossk]

I was thinking about the complaint that started this thread: that the characters were too young to be powerful battle commanders, etc. In most early cultures, puberty was pretty much your line of demarcation between childhood and adulthood. You were expected to start contributing right away.

That said, Robb would have probably sat around and run Winterfell for years if the Lannisters hadn't killed his father. At that point he had to either bend the knee or take the field.

It's definitely true that the children of powerful people were groomed to take command at a young age. In the Royal Navy in the 19th century, for instance, Midshipmen took command of a watch and were sometimes preteens. It was the title and position that made them commanders, not necessarily any innate ability. I guess we were just lucky that Stark kids have the moral courage and ability to lead well - instead of being like Joffrey or that Arryn brat.