And this is basically what it comes down to for me. Everyone talks about helping out the little guy, the underdog, being a voice for those who have none. We send billions of dollars to the Third World to keep people alive in the worst circumstances that can be imagined, but we kill babies in the richest country in the world for the sake of convenience. People raise a stink about executing vile criminals, but don't think twice about the 3,562 abortions that occur daily.
This makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Pro-Choice / Pro-Life Retread
Moderator: Fist and Faith
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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I'm Murrin
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In my mind, it is the idea that 'life' is the matter under debate that causes all these problems. An amoeba is 'alive'. Bacteria are 'alive'. A zygote is 'alive'. But when you actually look at them all those things are is an incredibly complex system of chemical processes. That is why I think sentience is more relevant to this issue than the superficial desgination that is 'life'.ur-bane wrote:? In my book, it is the lack of such a definition that makes it a debatable issue in the first place.Murrin wrote:Once you get into defining what is and isn't 'alive', the whole debate can become ridiculous.
If we all had an accepted concrete definition of when a human fetus is "alive," there would be no point of contention.
And, as shown in Cail's examples above, that specific qualification complicates the matter; it doesn't simplify the matter.
But sentience brings about it's own baggage. Is a child with Down's Syndrome sentient? Is a newborn sentient? I'd say no in both cases, so are you saying that it's OK to kill them? Neither amoebas nor bacteria is human, and neither is going to grow into an adult and buy you a drink.
Why attach all the qualifiers? A zygote is human life. Undeveloped, to be sure, but human life.
Why attach all the qualifiers? A zygote is human life. Undeveloped, to be sure, but human life.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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ur-bane
- The Gap Into Spam
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Murrin, couldn't it be argued that sentience is "an incredibly complex system of chemical processes..?"
)
My thoughts exactly. (BTW-- I do not want to meet a bacteria willing to buy me a drink!Cail wrote:Why attach all the qualifiers? A zygote is human life. Undeveloped, to be sure, but human life.
)
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
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Prebe
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While I agree that Cail is bringing up some thought provoking ideas, I hope that you (Ur-bane) are not using the sperm/ovum argument as an argument against abortion. That would bring hell down on us wankers 
Using the life argument doesn't work. We kill cells all the time. Why should any cell be better than the next one? They are all alive.
Using the individual argument is difficult, as it requires consensus on what constitutes an individual.
Using the principle of sentience is difficult, as it requires consensus on what constitutes sentience.
Murrin did his part by bringing animals into it (shame on you )
My point is, that this discussion is very difficult. And we should be carefull what we call each other (murderer, bigot etc.). While I am still pro-abortion, this discussion has made me think of some of the arguments i normally use.
Using the life argument doesn't work. We kill cells all the time. Why should any cell be better than the next one? They are all alive.
Using the individual argument is difficult, as it requires consensus on what constitutes an individual.
Using the principle of sentience is difficult, as it requires consensus on what constitutes sentience.
Murrin did his part by bringing animals into it (shame on you
)My point is, that this discussion is very difficult. And we should be carefull what we call each other (murderer, bigot etc.). While I am still pro-abortion, this discussion has made me think of some of the arguments i normally use.
Last edited by Prebe on Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I want to go back to this for a second.Cybrweez wrote:I don't think 2 wrongs make a right. If its wrong, its wrong. If it wasn't allowed, maybe we could spend the millions spent on abortion for other things, such as taking care of those unwanted babies.Prebe wrote:If it is possible to guarantee a good adoptive family for every unwanted child born, then we can discuss banning abortion, but not before.
Prebe, we gan't guarantee a good birth family for every wanted child born, why should the yardstick be any different for the unwanted ones? Sure, adoptive parents should be screened, but you're assuming that every family should or will be happy and healthy. I agree to a certain extent, but we can't guarantee anyone's family is "good".
'Weez-You are absolutely correct. Wrong is wrong. Perpetuating abortion by using the excuse that there aren't enough adoptive families is just plain bad logic.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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All cells are alive, but not all cells mature into a distinct human being with a unique genetic makeup. A fertilized egg is not the mother's cells or the father's. It's its own entity.Prebe wrote:Using the life argument doesn't work. We kill cells all the time. Why should any cell be better than the next one? They are all alive.
If wanking is murder, I'm worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin combined.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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caamora
- The Purifier
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Again, I'm joining the argument late.
Self-awareness has little to do with life or abortion. I know some adults who have yet to achieve self-awareness!
Fact of the matter is that a woman is not born with two hearts, two brains, two spinal cords, etc. If she wants to alter her own body, then she should be allowed to. That is what plastic surgery is for. However, in the case of abortion, she is not altering her own body but destroying another.
If she has CHOICE, then she should choose not to get pregnant. In this day and age, there is not excuse for an unwanted pregnancy.
Abortion should be allowed in cases of rape, incest, danger to mother. But, sadly, the majority of abortions are not for these reasons.
Self-awareness has little to do with life or abortion. I know some adults who have yet to achieve self-awareness!
Fact of the matter is that a woman is not born with two hearts, two brains, two spinal cords, etc. If she wants to alter her own body, then she should be allowed to. That is what plastic surgery is for. However, in the case of abortion, she is not altering her own body but destroying another.
If she has CHOICE, then she should choose not to get pregnant. In this day and age, there is not excuse for an unwanted pregnancy.
Abortion should be allowed in cases of rape, incest, danger to mother. But, sadly, the majority of abortions are not for these reasons.
The King has one more move.
I was contrasting it to the sheer number we're talking about here in the States. We kill as many in 4-1/2 days as you kill in a year. The sheer magnitude of what's going on is staggering, and roughly 99% of those pregnancies are due to poor choices; choice to have sex, choice to not use contraception.
Nice to see you Caam.
Nice to see you Caam.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Prebe
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Thanks for the compliment to our responsibility Cail, but if you look at the realative numbers about 20% of all pregnancies in Denmark are terminated by legal abortion. I think you forget how few we are.
I am not saying this is good. Just thought I'd let you know.
I am not saying this is good. Just thought I'd let you know.
"I would have gone to the thesaurus for a more erudite word."
-Hashi Lebwohl
-Hashi Lebwohl
I'll be honest, I thought that was a typo. 20% is a huge chunk.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Lord Mhoram
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You forgot to add to me. Who are you to decide whether or not a certain quality of life is acceptable?
Edit-
www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/99facts/pregrate.htm
And we had 1,365,700 abortions. So we're at about 22%.
Edit-
www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/99facts/pregrate.htm
womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats_2.htmAn estimated 6,240,000 pregnancies resulted in a live birth, induced abortion, or fetal loss (miscarriages or stillbirths) in the United States in 1996
And we had 1,365,700 abortions. So we're at about 22%.
Last edited by Cail on Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Lord Mhoram
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I can't, and I'm not going to try. You and I would want the plug pulled if we were in a vegitative state. Other people wouldn't. I can't decide on quality of life for anyone but myself.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Lord Mhoram
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Prebe
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I thought the percentage would be roughly the same Cail.
About the adoption argument. Yes it sucked. I know.
By the way, I take it that you are against IVF too?
About the adoption argument. Yes it sucked. I know.
By the way, I take it that you are against IVF too?
Last edited by Prebe on Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That's 3 times in the last 30 minutes.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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