A Question for Believers

[ur-bane]

Those words within the brackets are meant to clarify meaning, and were not present in the original translated biblical texts.

[Prebe]

I suspected that. In other words, they are added by whom ever quotes the scripture?

[ur-bane]

They're added by whomever edits the edition. Usually there is an Editor's Note at the beginning of each printed bible explaining what wsa done in that particular version.

Reader's Editions are the worst, because they more than any other version lose much of the original translated language in an attempt to clarify passages.

EDIT: "clarify passages" according to the Editor's interpretation, that is.

[Prebe]

Thank ur-bane. That's what I needed to know.

[Nathan]

? The Watchtower seem to be full of them.

That's because the watchtower is propaganda, and as such is heavily edited (even more so than the Jehovah's witnesses' own bible translation) to make everything look how they want it to look.

[Prebe]

It might be propaganda, but it is still mighty entertaining

[Cybrweez]

Prebe, wasn't offended, hope you weren't either. But, I think of this board as intelligent, and one thing I hate in debates is "mob tactics". Throw around statements that you believe others think, and those statements sounding so bad that anyone would think, dang, he thinks that, what a fool! So, that particular tactic gets me a little riled up. But, to answer your thoughts:

…The only thing you could give him was: "Forget your compassion, the non-believers deserve everything they get.".

That is, I admit, a stretch. However, I did ask for your confirmation (3 times as I recall) whether you think that Jews and other non-Christians go to heaven. You did not bother to answer, so I took the hints from your other posts, as an indication that you believe that they don’t.

I thought I did answer this, and Cail and I had some debate about it. Was that in this thread?

This combined with the following:

I believe there is a hell. What it is exactly, isn't important to me, and I don't dwell on it, b/c I believe Jesus provided my "way out".

Is pretty much saying that you don’t’ care about the infidels destiny post-mortem, because you are covered. It does however seem that SalothSaR does, which I find an amiable trait. Whether this also implies an advice to SalothSaR is an assumption on my behalf I admit.

Here's a big stretch. I said I don't dwell on what hell is, period, whether its a lake of burning sulfur, separation from God, or whatever. That statement has nothing to do w/other people. Its that simple.

I also believe its not wise to, let's say, "self-reflect" to much. Jesus calls us to love others more than ourself, which means, I should spend my time thinkin of the needs of others.

This is exactly what SalothSaR does, and that makes him depressed, because the words of the Bible do not answer his questions.

By this statement, I mean to point out man's selfishness, and when we think about ourselves, it tends to lead to depression. This was not in response to SalotHSaR thinking about others, but self-reflection, thinking about yourself.

If that is how you deal with existential crisis and depression in you fellow man, don't be talking to me about good!

A bit harsh perhaps, but check out what you wrote:

If you are good according to God, you'll get into heaven. But that good is perfect. Your good is a MUCH lower standard.

Pardon me (and pardon the expression) but what the hell do you know about my good? Other than the fact, that I don’t do it in the name of the Lord?

I know it all came out a bit harsh, and I apologise for any inconvenience.

Prebe

And my statement may sound harsh, but in reality, it isn't. Its a comparison b/w the God of the Bible and you, and I know enough about you to know you're standard is lower than His. That's not a putdown or attack. I believe all of ours are. If there is no God, there is no good.

[SalotHSaR]

Or at least, one that does not offer perfection shouldn't demand it.

Sorry Salothsar, I'm not sure how to relate those examples to to the question.

God does require perfection. That's why it is impossible to make it into heaven. Everyone fails the first two commandments constantly, consistently.

Worshipping other gods and making graven images? You're going to have to clarify that.

Love the Lord your God with all your soul, all your heart, and all your mind.

Hmm... I don't see anything about other gods there at all for the first commandment.

[Cybrweez]

I just have one thing to add to this at the moment.
SalotH--I (to steal Cail's word that I really like) vehemently disagree.

If God demands perfection, then where does forgiveness come in?

Through Christ. That's what's been mentioned.

Why then does the Catholic religion include the rite of confession? The religion teaches that if one is truly sorry for his sins, one will be forgiven by god, and the door to heaven is once again open for that individual.

Don't know where that comes from.

By no means does God require perfection. Were that the case, He would have started over after Adam and Eve disobeyed Him. (A perfect creation would not disobey, eh?)

Add to that the fact that we live in an imperfect (by human standards, which shouldn't surpass that of God, IMO) world, and it is clear that a God that does not demand perfection of Himself cannot possibly demand perfection from his creation.

The Bible teaches God created for 2 reasons, fellowship and to show His love. I must admit, on this side of eternity, I think I could come up w/better ways to show it, but my view is limited.

[ur-bane]

Cybr--you missed the connection I was making.
If God demands perfection, and only through perfection could we enter heaven, then "forgiveness" is a moot point. Because although you may have been forgiven, the fact of its necessity renders one imperfect.

Yes, I am aware of the reason for Jesus sacrifice on the cross, but that just illustrates my point further.

[Cybrweez]

ur-bane, are you confusing forgiveness and justice? They are two separate things.

[ur-bane]

ur-bane, are you confusing forgiveness and justice? They are two separate things.

What? Where'd that come from? I am speaking of forgiveness as it relates to a demand for perfection. SalotH stated that God demands perfection from us. I am countering that quite clearly.

How can one who needs forgiveness be perfect?

Justice has nothing to do with it.

[SalotHSaR]

ur-bane, are you confusing forgiveness and justice? They are two separate things.

What? Where'd that come from? I am speaking of forgiveness as it relates to a demand for perfection. SalotH stated that God demands perfection from us. I am countering that quite clearly.

How can one who needs forgiveness be perfect?

Humanity is incapable of perfection. Perfection comes from God. No unbeliever can do anything perfect, no Christian can do anything imperfect. I'm not suggesting that I'm perfect in a way that you're now thinking, but rather that my Spirit has been made perfect & no longer is damned & will never sin again.

But the dead flesh of me yet sins, just as the dead flesh of you sins. When I go to heaven, this deadness will not be allowed into heaven. I will be given a new body to add to my perfect soul, a soul that was reborn when I accepted Jesus as my savior for dying for my sins, a soul that now contains God in the form of the Holy Spirit. Everything that I do in the spirit will be a part of my eternal life. No sin will be a part of that new life. So if I am a drinker or smoker, I will not be then. But if I pray to God about my curiosity of the universe, then that will be a part of who I will be in eternal life. That way I will not be merely a singer in the choir, but retain my individuality, just without sinning.

No perfection can be had without God.
No God, Know sin. Know God, no sin.
Again, this isn't to say that I never sin. I sin every day. But my Spirit has the Holy Spirit bound to it by my accepting the gift of God's eternal life through the sacrifice of His only Son. Once I accept this gift with faith, it can never be taken away. My soul is perfect because the act of ultimate, eternal sacrifice washes away sin so that my spirit is whiter than snow and there is nothing imperfect on it come the day of judgment when I stand before God. My name is written in the Lamb's book of Life. I am heavenbound, perfect, prepared for death, and ready to meet my Maker.

[Furls Fire]

I was directed to this thread by Fisty and Avatar, but that was days ago. (I just now got online after a bad bout with chemo). So I'm sorry it has taken me so long to respond.

The initial question was...and I'm paraphrasing here...Who goes to hell and what exactly is hell? My personal belief is this: Hell is seperation from God. Hell is existance surrounded by darkness and torment. I do not perceive hell as a "place" or a "pit of fire". Darkness and torment to me, and I stress to me, would be the utter withdrawal of God from my heart, soul, being. I could not imagine a more awful existance. So, the question is, whose soul is damned to such existance? It is my belief that any soul rejecting God would be seperated from God. And that is "hell". Now, before anyone jumps on me, don't misunderstand, I do not mean the people who do not believe in God in this life. It is human nature to question, wonder, doubt...free will. In this life, the gift of free will God gave us allows us to explore our existance. And some chose to explore the possibility that He does not exist. I don't have all the answers, I do not presume to know what the Lord thinks or feels, but my faith in Him leads me to these beliefs. So, when I say, "those souls who reject Him are the ones seperated from Him and therefore are in 'hell' ", I mean those souls who, after passing, see all His Glory and Joy and Peace and Light...and yet STILL deny Him. It is they who chose that existance, not God.

My brother said once to a man who was in such torment and was sure he was going to hell because he believed he "murdered" his family by drunk driving..."God does not condemn those who fail themselves, where do you think forgiveness comes from?" In other words, God forgives those who seek forgivness AND can forgive themselves. We are all God's children..ALL...we may all look different, talk different, live different, and believe different..but that is the wonder of the Lord.

Child to Azeem: "Did God paint you?"
Azeem in answer: "Yes"
Child: "Why?"
Azeem: "Because, Allah loves wonderous variety."

He made us free thinkers, free soulsearchers, free believers. "Allah loves wonderous variety." So, I do not believe that any one "religion" is the "true" or "right" religion. Because, religion is man made, and most of the time it uses God as a front to enforce it's need of power over the masses. And I've said this in other threads, I believe in God and Jesus Christ, not religion. My faith comes from having the Holy Spirit living in my soul not from some pulpit that shouts out fire and brimstone, instilling fear in people instead of love.

I'm not sure if I made any sense in here. I hope I did. I don't believe anyone should fear God. It is my wish that everyone could walk in His Love the way I and my family do. Not walk in fear of His wrath.


Peace

[Cail]

Thanks Furls.

[Plissken]

If there is no God, there is no good.

Keeping it simple: This is the fundamental (pun) basis of belief that keeps both offering plates and bumpersticker manufacturers coffers full.

It can be argued, with some validity, that a good deed done in the absence of a belief in God (and therefore, Divine Judgement) is a more pure and selfless example of "Good" than can be performed by someone with the mindset of a "True Believer."

[[Syl]]

Indeed, thank you, Furls. You made perfect sense to me. Beautiful.

(and keep kickin' that chemo/cancer's a**!)

[Prebe]

If there is no God, there is no good.

So what anybody does is not good at all, if God's not in it?

Such an attitude I would define as fundamentalistic.

Edit: As I can see Plissken does. Didn't read your post there Pliss.

[sgt.null]

screw it, do good regardless of affiliation.

discovering God is a personal decision.

i pray that for all of you the two aspects above mesh. because the alchemy is wonderous.

and i'm not judging anyone here.

i wish you all the happiness i have found, that's all...

[Dromond]

Well Furls Fire, you post beautifully and succinctly, always, it seems.

If only religion could be defined by you and people like you.
Then people like me would have less to fight about.

Salothsar:

You obviously care much about hell and eternity, and anguish in believing that many experience the eternal pain as taught you.

If I were a Christian, my views would probably fall in line with this guy:
www.bible-truths.com.
L. Ray Smith is his name and don't dismiss his website because of the initial appearance.
He is coherent and consistent throughout, his thoughts on hell are (as you prefer) based on the original Greek and Hebrew languages and he is quite convincing in his arguement that eternal pain awaits no one.

Anyway, peace and good luck.