Where did the Old Lords meet pre-Revelstone?

[matrixman]

Okay, so it's not an earth-shaking inquiry, but it amuses me. This is the kind of silly question that would probably make SRD's eyes glaze over, if not quite driving him irrevocably insane.

Revelstone has been (and continues to be) such an integral part of the saga of the Chronicles that it seems as if it's always been there -- we take it for granted. But Lords Keep wasn't built until Damelon's time. So where do you suppose the Old Lords met prior to Revelstone's construction? Maybe some quaint mini-castle of their own that eventually got obliterated by Kevin's Ritual of Desecration, like all their other "works"?

Maybe Berek held the first Council at the old city of Doriendor Corishev, the capital of his former nation? Or was the city already in ruins before the war between Berek's Queen and the corrupt King even started? I don't think it was ever made clear in the books. This is one of those niggly details of the Land's timeline that's both trivial and vexing for the Chronicles aficionado. And even if Doriendor Corishev still stood at the end of the war, maybe Berek didn't want to hold Council there because the city was too much of a reminder of the old corrupt ways of men.

Then I thought about the secret chambers inside Melenkurion Skyweir. Who else but the Old Lords would have used them? The Demondim?? Some previously unknown super-Earthpowerful race? Then again, the bowels of a mountain make for a pretty out-of-the-way place for the Lords of the Land to meet.

[wayfriend]

I know that they liked to hang out at the TGI Friday's in Bandsoil Bounds, but that's not what you'd call an official seat of power.

Almost anything could be imagined to have existed and then destroyed by the Ritual. Perhaps there was a city in Kurash Plenethor.

I don't think that the Lords lived under Mount Thunder at any time. If it was a dark place at the height of Kevin's reign, then the Lords probably never tried to dwell there.

We can rule out the land below Landsdrop. If the Colossus predates the Lords, then the evil the Colussus prevents does, too.

If they were in Andelain, there'd still be something there during the First Chronicles.

Doriendor Corishev is out, too. Once Berek got the Staff of Law, the demise of the Forests would not have taken place. "Doriendor Corishev had been the capital of the nation which gave birth to Berek Halfhand." Berek was from that nation, not necessarilly that city. And "the city had been deserted since the time of Berek". DC was actually done in by drought at the same time it was done in by the war. The same felling of tries which turned the land to desert also unleashed the Ravers which led to the war that did them in.

But that injury had many ramifications. On the one hand, the felling of the trees unbound the interdict which the Colossus of the Fall had held over the Lower Land. The Ravers were unleashed - a release which led with deft inevitability to the destruction of Doriendor Corishev's monarchy in the great war of Berek Halfhand. And on the other hand, the loss of perhaps a hundred thousand square leagues of Forest altered the natural balances of the Earth. Every falling tree hammered home an ineluctable doom for the masterplace. As the trees died, the southern lands lost the watershed which had preserved them from the Gray Desert. Centuries after the ravage of the One Forest became irreversible, these lands turned to dry ruin.

These are many indications that Berek, as Lord-Fatherer, and the subsequent Lords did not live there.

[danlo]

Maybe Kurash Plenethor?

[Warmark]

Perhaps they roamed?
I always got the impression that Berek at least was a Traveler.

[dlbpharmd]

How many Lords could there have been when Berek was High Lord?

[Warmark]

How many Lords could there have been when Berek was High Lord?

Fair point. Perhaps there was no council until Damelons time.
Mabye Berek was the only Lords of his Time.

[IrrationalSanity]

There must be much more to Berek's story than has been let on to date.

For example, Berek would have needed some time between his recognition of Earthpower and the creation of the first Staff of Law. I can see him wandering around, being seen as some kind of madman by most, but gathering followers and believers. These folks would be learning from his teachings all the time up through the point where he finds the One Tree and creates the first Staff of Law.

Once the Staff is made, he elevates his greatest pupils and forms the first council. I'm guessing it was merely the Council of Berek at that time. They probably didn't start calling themselves Lords - that title was probably given to them as they gained respect from and actual influence over the people of the Land.

[Kaos Arcanna]

Berek: This month's Council will meet at my place. BYOTB- Bring Your
Own Treasure Berries!

[dlbpharmd]

There must be much more to Berek's story than has been let on to date.

For example, Berek would have needed some time between his recognition of Earthpower and the creation of the first Staff of Law. I can see him wandering around, being seen as some kind of madman by most, but gathering followers and believers. These folks would be learning from his teachings all the time up through the point where he finds the One Tree and creates the first Staff of Law.

Once the Staff is made, he elevates his greatest pupils and forms the first council. I'm guessing it was merely the Council of Berek at that time. They probably didn't start calling themselves Lords - that title was probably given to them as they gained respect from and actual influence over the people of the Land.

Sounds good to me.

[Caer Bombadil]

There must be much more to Berek's story than has been let on to date.

For example, Berek would have needed some time between his recognition of Earthpower and the creation of the first Staff of Law. I can see him wandering around, being seen as some kind of madman by most, but gathering followers and believers. These folks would be learning from his teachings all the time up through the point where he finds the One Tree and creates the first Staff of Law.

Once the Staff is made, he elevates his greatest pupils and forms the first council. I'm guessing it was merely the Council of Berek at that time. They probably didn't start calling themselves Lords - that title was probably given to them as they gained respect from and actual influence over the people of the Land.

Makes perfect sense to me. I agree it is illogical to think Berek descended from Mt Thunder a full-fledged High Lord, and then walked immediately over to the One Tree and cut himself a Staff.

A few more thoughts occur to me. The old regime had to be in an advanced state of political and economic chaos and decline, given the horrendous civil war, the King's madness, and the upheaval in the climate. People must already have been relocating refugee-like en masse from the desertifying South into the Land for some time.

If anyone actually witnessed Berek's last stand and the attack of the Fire-Lions, that incident must have given an instant boost to his approval ratings, enough that he at least would have enough immediate stature and cred that the demoralized people would at least listen to him and follow him. And they must have, for the Land must otherwise have been in a state of anarchy. In any event, it seems implied he was already something of a popular hero and celebrity even before the civil war broke out.

So Berek must have walked the Land as a sort of itenerant evangelist, until the people basically made him the head of their new political order by popular acclaimation. As to the question of "where", some possibilities might include Kurash Plenethor, somewhere on the outskirts of Andelain, or wherever it was that the One Tree was found the first time. (Silly me, reading the 1st chrons I used to think the One Tree must've grown in the One Forest! )

Also I must wonder: what happened to the Queen? Did she die before Berek's victory? If she in fact survived the war, she could have lent Berek her own legitimacy.

(Another thought occurs to me, along the lines of wondering who was Damelon's mother, but in view of the interpretation of "Land's History as analog for Coventant's own life" I offered in another thread, I won't even go there!)

[drew]

The Kind died in the Battle, it is probeble hat Berek returned to his queen.
If she still held credibility with her people, they would have regarded Berek as a hero, he may have been able to come and go as he pleased.

Presumably he did eventually get some followers, otherwise when Loric met the Giants, they wouldn't have built such a grand castle as revelstone.

[matrixman]

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

And thanks to Wayfriend for pointing out those quotes from TIW. D'oh! So much for Doriendor.

Kudos to IrrationalSanity and Caer Bombadil for some excellent speculation! I hadn't really thought about the fate of the Queen. Did she survive the war or not? Good question. I can't help but wonder if this will be addressed in the Last Chronicles. And maybe along the way, SRD will also casually throw in a line about where Berek and his disciples first met.

Berek: This month's Council will meet at my place. BYOTB- Bring Your
Own Treasure Berries!

Good one, Kaos!

[High Lord Tolkien]

I hadn't really thought about the fate of the Queen.

Joan, er...I mean the Queen did indeed survive.
Roger,er... I mean Berek would have kept her safe.

[drew]

You wish.

[CovenantJr]

I can see him wandering around, being seen as some kind of madman by most, but gathering followers and believers.

I agree it is illogical to think Berek descended from Mt Thunder a full-fledged High Lord, and then walked immediately over to the One Tree and cut himself a Staff.

Throughout the First Chronicles, various parallels are drawn between Covenant and Berek - and not just on the physical side. The first time I read the First Chrons, I gradually came to think of Berek as very much like Covenant, and that has stayed with me (you can also witness a similar idea in the film Dogma). I can see Berek as a man chosen by Earthpower to wield forces he doesn't really understand or know how to handle. He's no more ready or eager for these burdens than Covenant is, and his quest for the original Staff of Law was probably as ramshackle and haphazard in conception and execution as Covenant's. I suspect he probably had to spend a fair length of time coming to terms with all this himself, and quite possibly, like Covenant, his companions (I'm sure he wasn't alone) had a handle on it before he did. These companions, whoever they were, may well have formed the first impromptu Council of Lords.

You could also, if you were so inclined, try to draw some quasi-clever parallels between Berek avec Earthpower and Covenant avec leprosy. It's possible Berek, after being hailed as a hero in the war, completely fell from grace once he became a delusional fanatic after "discovering Earthpower".