Foul and the Old Lords

[burgs]

My brain may be frozen (it's been a bit cold here in Chicago for the last month), but I can't remember what Foul hoped to gain with "infiltrating" the Old Lords.

Sure, Kevin performed the RoD, but what did that do for Foul? What did he accomplish? Nothing that the Old Lords did or could do (as far as I understand) could harm him, and they certainly couldn't set him free from the Arch of Time.

So - what was his purpose? Was he just toying around with them as if they were marionettes?

[Warmark]

The same could be said of making War on the New Lords. If he destroys them, so what? Thats not going to set him free.
For instance had he desroyed them TC could not have been summoned again and there would be no WG.

[Usivius]

The Land (and the world) are the creation of ... The Creator. It is a 'natural' compuncion to wish to destroy that which your enemy has creatd, and trapped you in.
The war during TC's time was done just for that, with a side (and more iimportant) effort to forse TC to use the ring, despair, hand over the ring... etc.

[burgs]

I was thinking more about this, and suddenly the answer seemed rather obvious. Foul has known all along that he needs white gold to escape his prison. He had to make *someone* desperate enough to summon white gold to the Land, although how he knew that such a summons was possibel, and why he himself did not have the power to do so, I'm not certain.

Anyway, by destroying the old Lords and their knowledge (the lore was, for the most part, lost), he (perhaps) inadvertently created new Lords, with far less power to oppose him, thus necessitating the summoning of White Gold.

I know that a thing needs to be given freely, which is why Foul had to beat TC up to such a point where he would hand it over, but why didn't Foul simply summon TC himself, play all sweet, trick him into thinking that he was unfairly imprisoned, have TC give him his ring....oh wait. I just answered that question. Good luck getting TC give up the only memory he has of Joan. However, how would Foul know that?

[High Lord Tolkien]

I thought I remember reading in the GI that SRD said that Foul (at that time) wasn't sure if the RoD or Earthpower could break the Arch or not.
Is this true or am I smoking wood chips?

[burgs]

Perhaps the next time I have a stupid question I'll search the GI.

From SRD:

As for Foul's reasons for messing with the Lords: why do you assume that they had no real power to release him from his prison? The very fact that Berek created the Staff (an organic instrument vulnerable to destruction) shows that the Lords were (inadvertently) helping to create the conditions necessary to Foul's release: they were (unintentionally) devising ways by which Law would be made vulnerable to damage. In addition, I see no reason to assume that Foul *knew* the Arch of Time would survive the Ritual of Desecration: he may very well have been hoping that such a draconian violation of Law would be enough to spring him free. Remember, he, too, is learning as he goes.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I thought that was it.

[burgs]

Don't hurt yourself...

The remaining question, then, is how did Foul come to learn of white gold, and perhaps more so, how did the people of the Land come to learn of white gold?

[burgs]

I just submitted that question to SRD via GI. I suppose we'll get that answer in four months or so.

[The Somberlain]

I expect the Elohim knew about it from the beginning, and maybe they travelled around the world a bit singing songs, plus they aren't THAT inhospitable, since they were happy to say hello the the Giants and Amok, so... yeah. I expect it was mostly the Giants telling Damelon's contemporaries about it, now that I think about it.

As for Foul, well, he existed before the Arch of Time, too, so presumably he understood the white gold/wild magic connection from the start.

[Nerdanel]

Considering that Lord Foul's schemes tend to benefit heavily from him being able to guess what his opponents will do, he must have done something to gain the knowledge in the first place. The Old Lords were actually fairly powerful, so Foul couldn't have just brushed them off as insignificant. In addition, Foul's familiarity with every sort of lore implies that he must have actively pursued it. I think he's just a type that likes to be on the top of things.

It can be argued that Foul was able to give advice on the use of the Staff of Law because he had learned about it in the Council. Therefore the arrival of the white gold in the Land was a result of his undercover operation. Knowledge is power.

Also, I suspect that Foul had plans for taking over the Council. The problem was that Kevin had been the High Lord for a thousand years and for all we know might have kept going for another thousand or more. It sounds like the lifespan of a Lord is proportional to their level of power and knowledge and Kevin was VERY formidable. So naturally Foul got impatient and decided to speed things up a little. If everything had gone according to the plan Kevin's place would have been vacated and Foul would have been in a good position to maneuver himself to the top. Then he could have tried to get white gold summoned to the Land with the Council's help and/or aimed for maximal general suffering for his own pleasure and to make the Creator break the Arch.

[burgs]

As for Foul, well, he existed before the Arch of Time, too, so presumably he understood the white gold/wild magic connection from the start.

I'm not so certain of that. If he understood it, why didn't he summon the white gold himself? He was POWERFUL.

[ur-bane]

There's a part of me that's thinking that whole "tool" thing might come in to play.
Had Foul summoned Covenant directly, in essence, he was buying a tool, and the White Gold may not then have been able to free Foul. Foul had to rely on other people to work his machinations. And that included not summoning Covenant directly.

Also, Covenant had to be able to make a choice to use the White Gold and/or give it to Foul. Had Foul summoned Covenant, with what we know of Covenant's stubbornness, would he have given Foul the ring? I think not. If anything, a Foul summonsing would have guaranteed Covenant would not give Foul the ring, and therefore, it would be of no use to Foul, since according to SRD, the power of white gold must be given [in order for it to have Foul's desired outcome]. Taking it would not work.
And therefore Foul, as powerful as he is, couldn't summon Covenant to free him from his prison.

Just my thoughts.

[drew]

I'm not so certain of that. If he understood it, why didn't he summon the white gold himself? He was POWERFUL.

As SRD has been saying lately, Foul is gettting smarter, he has been there for at leat an Eon.

I'd say that Foul wasn't all knwoing, and only by at first joining , and then trying to defeat, or at least combat his enimies; waas were he gained his knowledge.

TC noted that there was old magic at work in Fould Creche.

As for how the Old Lords came to know of White gold..we don't know how much Berek Learned from the Earthpower, but it seems pretty substancial.

BTW--burgs, what happed to your photograph?

[burgs]

I think that what you're saying, ur-bane, is probably correct. However, I still wonder why Foul couldn't have summoned TC to the Land and convinced him to give him the ring in order to save the Land from a horrible peril (that was his doing all along anyway).

I guess that falls into the 'Foul is getting smarter' all the time. Which probably means that he did not know of the composition of the arch of time.

I would LOVE to know how that knowledge was spread throughout the Land - Foul and the people. The Elohim, as mentioned before - I'm not sure about that. Why bring an item of peril into the land? They have said that Foul does not concern them.

Drew - I thought I looked too mean.

[matrixman]

I suspect that Foul had plans for taking over the Council. The problem was that Kevin had been the High Lord for a thousand years and for all we know might have kept going for another thousand or more. It sounds like the lifespan of a Lord is proportional to their level of power and knowledge and Kevin was VERY formidable. So naturally Foul got impatient and decided to speed things up a little. If everything had gone according to the plan Kevin's place would have been vacated and Foul would have been in a good position to maneuver himself to the top. Then he could have tried to get white gold summoned to the Land with the Council's help and/or aimed for maximal general suffering for his own pleasure and to make the Creator break the Arch.

Pretty creepy scenario. High Lord Foul? Or rather, The High Lord Not Yet Known As Foul. Oh well. A Foul Lord by any other name would smell as sweet...as attar. (groan)

Hmmm, Lord Foul did kind of rule the Land in the 2nd Chronicles by proxy: Gibbon na-Mhoram. Things didn't work out well for the Raver, but it served its Master's purpose regardless.

[KAY1]

It is kind of weird about the White Gold as I'm sure someone said in first and/or second chrons that gold didn't exist on the Earth. However Kasreyn in the 2nd chrons had yellow gold which also had some power.

[The Somberlain]

As for Foul, well, he existed before the Arch of Time, too, so presumably he understood the white gold/wild magic connection from the start.

I'm not so certain of that. If he understood it, why didn't he summon the white gold himself? He was POWERFUL.

But if he didn't understand it, why did he force the summoning to go ahead? Drool would never have got Covenant without Foul - not only did Foul teach him to use the SoL, but Foul specifically told Drool that Covenant was "his".

And as was said a bit earlier, had he directly summoned the white gold wielder, it probably wouldn't have worked for him.
On top of that, there probably aren't that many potential white gold-bearers around (assuming there are only two "universes"; ours and The Land's, and that only ours contains white gold).
Not that many people have white gold, and certainly not that many people who are also suitable for Foul's plans (he wouldn't have much chance of success with a courageous, heroic, Berek-character from our world). And don't forget that although the Land's been around for a while, in terms of our time, I think it's been no more than a century or two.

[KAY1]

Perhaps as well Foul didn't want White Gold to be in the Land in the time of such powerful Lords as Kevin. Foul had reasons for everything he did. He planned well into the future and probably needed certain events to unfold before he could be sure all the elements he needed were in place.

[Nerdanel]

I think Foul didn't summon white gold because he didn't know how. Later the Staff of Law was inimical to him. I think summoning is one of those things that works better by some methods than by others. Also, if Foul had just tried to summon Covenant, Covenant would have been able to refuse like he did in the beginning of The Power that Preserves.

I've wondered why Kevin didn't summon white gold. My best guess is that he was well aware of the "save or damn" part and chose a certain Desecration rather than a 50% chance of absolute destruction.

I have been developing a crackpot theory about the potential for summoning being limited by vicinity to the Have Farm (more exactly, a spot in the woods near the Haven Farm), but that would go to the Spoiler forum since some of the vague evidence is from the Last Chronicles. (I wonder where Pentagon is exactly? Could Hile Troy's summoning be a clue to Covenant's home state?)