Foul and the Old Lords

[burgs]

I don't think that is something that SRD would consider. He's often said in the GI when people ask questions about Land to real world scenarios that we're barking up the wrong tree.

[Nerdanel]

I think SRD talked about things like trying to draw a connection between Covenant's life and the Land's history. Theoretizing that one particular place in the "real world" is special doesn't necessairly have to fit into that category. (My crackpot theory is more complex than that. I'll have to get into it...)

[burgs]

I'm pretty sure that I just read a post (while looking for something else) that cotradicts that. Such as the Ritual of Desecration not coinciding with TC's leprosy. That kind of thing.

[Nerdanel]

I was trying to say that I'm not trying to say that the Haven Farm would be special in any other way than its location re: summoning between worlds. That kind of thing wouldn't necessarily had any effect before Covenant was first summoned.

[Damelon]

My brain may be frozen (it's been a bit cold here in Chicago for the last month), but I can't remember what Foul hoped to gain with "infiltrating" the Old Lords.

Sure, Kevin performed the RoD, but what did that do for Foul? What did he accomplish? Nothing that the Old Lords did or could do (as far as I understand) could harm him, and they certainly couldn't set him free from the Arch of Time.

So - what was his purpose? Was he just toying around with them as if they were marionettes?

He wanted to force the Creator to bring white gold, possession of which was the only way LF could free himself of that world, into his creation in the form of TC.

[burgs]

Still - if Foul thought the RoD might bring about the destruction of the Arch of Time, that means (theorizing here, as SRD said that Foul is getting smarter all the time) Foul wasn't aware of the white gold connection.

How did he become aware? We'll never know if SRD doesn't tell us. Everything else is pure conjecture.

And I think I remember SRD saying that it didn't matter where Haven Farm was, or something along those lines. It just was. Given the description of the town, it seems unlikely.

[Nerdanel]

I don't know when Foul learned of the white gold (he might have known of it since the beginning, since he was there) but he would have learned very latest at the Coucil of the Lords, I think. Even though wild magic is the foundation of everything, that wouldn't necessarily have to mean that the world cannot be destroyed by some other means like a powerful Ritual of Desecration.

My crackpot theory I've been talking about is based on certain curious details in the story. According to the theory it doesn't really matter where Covenant's hometown and Haven Farm are on the map, it only matters that they have this special feature. If my theory is true, then it would be likely something SRD came up for the last two Chronicles. Therefore the Hile Troy connection wouldn't have been intended from the beginning but could still be used to tie down Haven Farm's approximate location according to the principles of the retroactive continuity. If SRD was going to make a revelation later, I think he would be coy and tell unrevealing half-truths that give the wrong impression, as I have been noticing on some other subjects. After all, we are talking about the guy who writes Lord Foul's dialogue.

[Damelon]

I don't think he believed the RoD would result in the destruction of the arch of time. He knew he would be reduced in power, but also he would gain it back. He also knew that he would be too powerful for the native Lords to stop. He figured the Creator would allow the white gold to become available because he (the Creator) wouldn't stand to see his creation tortured.

[Xar]

Following that train of thought, he also likely knew that whoever the Creator would choose to wield white gold, it would be someone equally likely to fall on the Despiser's side as on the Creator's; this simply because if the Creator had chosen a happy, content and mentally balanced individual as white gold bearer, he would have automatically been the Creator's tool, and thus not effective.

[Damelon]

That sums it up pretty good. The Creator had to take a risk to preserve his world.

[burgs]

I don't know when Foul learned of the white gold (he might have known of it since the beginning, since he was there) but he would have learned very latest at the Coucil of the Lords, I think. Even though wild magic is the foundation of everything, that wouldn't necessarily have to mean that the world cannot be destroyed by some other means like a powerful Ritual of Desecration.

The problem with this is that we just don't know what Foul knew or when he knew it. We can assume that, since he didn't induce the Old Lords to summon white gold to the Land, that he wasn't aware of its relation to the Arch of Time. We simply don't know when Foul became aware. Until we know this, everything is conjecture. But I can't imagine Foul being aware of wild magic and inducing the RoD. Unless, of course, he was trying to bring the Land into such a desolute state that someone, at some point, would have to try and summon it. However, that would assume that people knew of it - and how could he be certain that someone knew of the white gold? That's a tremendous risk on his part. With the RoD, everything was lost. He had no assurance that "new" Lords would arise.

Also, Foul wasn't exactly "there". The Creator threw him (so to speak) to the Earth and imprisoned him with the Arch of Time. (I have a lot of problems with that, such as - nice going, Creator - let Foul loose on your creation.) Foul being imprisoned doesn't mean he knew what imprisoned him.

[Nerdanel]

I think Lord Foul was in fact trying to induce Kevin to summon the white gold, but Kevin wouldn't play along. And there wasn't much Lord Foul could do if Kevin wished to have a Desecration instead. It wasn't like Foul could just suggest summoning the white gold and expect Kevin to obey.

Additionally, it may be that Lord Foul considered a Desecration a safer option than the white gold. White gold had the possibility of really spoiling his day, potentially even killing him for all he knew, but while a Ritual of Desecration was certain to wreak huge devastation, it also had the possibility that it just might break the Arch of Time. And I think Foul didn't expect that he would be hurt like he was. I think he probably hadn't gotten a serious personal beating during all his time within the Arch and thought he was invulnerable.

I think there is a passage somewhere in the books that says outright that Kevin knew about the white gold. Therefore I think Lord Foul would have known also since he was in the Council.

[Warmark]

I think is says kevin 'lusted' after the WG or something to that effect.

[burgs]

Amok to Elena:

I speak after my fashion, High Lord. Bearer, I have heard much and learned little concerning white gold. It is the girding paradox of the arch of Time, the undisciplined restraint of the Earth’s creation, the absent bone of the Earthpower, the rigidness of water and the flux of water. It articulates the wild magic which destroys peace. It is spoken of softly by the Bhrathair, and named in awe by the Elohim, though they have never seen it. Great Kelenbhrabanal dreams of it in his grave, and grim Sandgorgons writhe in voiceless nightmare at the touch of its name. In his last days, High Lord Kevin yearned for it in vain. It is the abyss and the peak of destiny.”

So everyone knows of it. I guess this is one of those things where, as in much of fantasy, we need to suspend disbelief and say who cares how he learned of it.

Foul, btw, was not powerful enough himself - or did not have the right kind of power - to summon white gold. He was only able to do that when the Staff of Law came under his influence.

I'd still like to know how *everyone* knew about it, though.

[drew]

Since SRD never says how people learned of it, I guess we'll just have to guess for ourselves.

I still think that the people of the Land learned of it through Berek, who learned of it from the Earthpower itself.

The Brathair, I don't know, as far as timelines go kAssy wasn't there yet, so it's hard to say.

The Elohim obviously know all about it, they know about everything...those bloody know-it-alls..

AS for creaturs like the Sandgorgans and the Ranyhyn..it's probely more like instinct.