The Gods
Moderator: dANdeLION
The Gods
can someone explain to me all the Gods in this series, and what they stand for in the theology of this story? I am a little confused between the different Gods. Old and New, Tree Gods, Horse Gods and somesuch. Having this made clear would help me alot with understanding certain factions. Cheers.
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bossk
- The Gap Into Spam
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The old gods (attributed to the first men) always struck me as being very much nature spirits, with the weirwoods and all.
The Septs seem to be analagous to Roman and Greek gods - each god represents a certain part of human nature (The Warrior, The Mother, The Stranger, etc.)
R'hllor seems to be a sort of barbaric proto-christianity only in that they have one deity called the lord of light who brooks no worship of any other god. The old gods and Septs seemed to be pretty mellow on that score.
This is just my intuitive grasp of it - I don't know if Mr. Martin has illuminated this at all.
The Septs seem to be analagous to Roman and Greek gods - each god represents a certain part of human nature (The Warrior, The Mother, The Stranger, etc.)
R'hllor seems to be a sort of barbaric proto-christianity only in that they have one deity called the lord of light who brooks no worship of any other god. The old gods and Septs seemed to be pretty mellow on that score.
This is just my intuitive grasp of it - I don't know if Mr. Martin has illuminated this at all.
Misanthropes of the world, unite!
the old gods are represented by trees.. or more specificly faces carved into trees. old god worshipers pray in weirwoods... ie groves of trees. their gods are without number. most old god worshipers are located in the north.. the firstmen worship the first men. a few houses in the south also worship these gods.
now the seven gods are worshiped by the andals.. ie the southern houses of westeros. Depending who you ask.. they wil ltel lyou the sven are seven actual gods or seven aspects of one god...
the seven are
Warrior,
Father
Mother
Maid
Smith
Stranger
crone
the representatiosn are obviouse. father stands for jsutice... mother child birth etc. stranger is the god of death. he is the only one hwo isnt portrayed in septons. like i said though some septons argue the seven are all just aspects of one god.
the 'red god' is worhsiped somewhat in the free cities. think of this as sort of a (rather eivl imo) version of christianity. ie there is one god and only one god... and he is opposed by darkness.. a sort of satanic figure..
now the seven gods are worshiped by the andals.. ie the southern houses of westeros. Depending who you ask.. they wil ltel lyou the sven are seven actual gods or seven aspects of one god...
the seven are
Warrior,
Father
Mother
Maid
Smith
Stranger
crone
the representatiosn are obviouse. father stands for jsutice... mother child birth etc. stranger is the god of death. he is the only one hwo isnt portrayed in septons. like i said though some septons argue the seven are all just aspects of one god.
the 'red god' is worhsiped somewhat in the free cities. think of this as sort of a (rather eivl imo) version of christianity. ie there is one god and only one god... and he is opposed by darkness.. a sort of satanic figure..
There is also the 'Drowned God' of the Ironborn.
Proof of him could be Victorians Brother ( i forget his name Darion? ) abilitly to drunk salted sea water.
To be honest there seems to be prrof of each God except the Seven.
R'hllor = ressuction ( Beric, Catelyn ) and the birth of the spirits.
Old Gods = Direwolves and weiwoods.
Seven = nothing realy, perhaps during winter they will become very powerful? That would be a surprise.
Proof of him could be Victorians Brother ( i forget his name Darion? ) abilitly to drunk salted sea water.
To be honest there seems to be prrof of each God except the Seven.
R'hllor = ressuction ( Beric, Catelyn ) and the birth of the spirits.
Old Gods = Direwolves and weiwoods.
Seven = nothing realy, perhaps during winter they will become very powerful? That would be a surprise.
But if you're all about the destination, then take a fucking flight.
We're going nowhere slowly, but we're seeing all the sights.
And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
Full of the heavens and time.
We're going nowhere slowly, but we're seeing all the sights.
And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
Full of the heavens and time.
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Variol Farseer
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Maid, Mother and Crone are the usual modern names for the Triple Goddess beloved of neopagan folklorists. Various European mythologies had analogous divinities: the Norns, the Moirae, and as Lloyd Alexander put it, some other manifestations that they would probably rather not admit to openly. The classical form (in all senses of the word) was the Greek one, of course — the Fates, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos. Whether these triads of minor divinities ever had the high (even dominant) status that neopagan theorists like to impute to them is, however, quite doubtful, and in some case the theorists may be drawing false identities between groups of goddesses that are not related either by origin or function.
The Smith is another borrowing from generalized folklore. Smith-gods are found in Iron Age (and even Bronze Age) cultures from Scandinavia to West Africa, and unlike the various triads of goddesses, share enough specific traits to clearly point to a common origin. For instance, almost all smith-gods in Western cultures are said to be lame — a telling biographical detail, as there is no logical or necessary connexion between metallurgical skill and the inability to walk. (Robert Graves suggests that this comes from a practice in early Iron Age cultures of cutting the hamstrings of the tribal smith so that he could not escape and teach other tribes to work iron. This is blatantly silly, and for two reasons. First, there is no evidence of such a practice anywhere; it is purely an ad hoc invention to account for this one curious common feature of the various myths. Second, it is stupid to suppose that such a practice could spread all the way from Russia to Ghana or thereabouts. If every tribe from here to yonder already knows how to work iron, there is no conceivable point in hamstringing your smith to keep his trade secrets in the tribe. At that point, he hasn't got any trade secrets. But then, logical thinking was never Graves's strongest point.) It is fairly safe to assume that the figure of the Smith was borrowed by one culture after another from a common point of origin, perhaps in one of the earliest Iron Age cultures of Asia Minor.
Some neopagan writers like to offer a masculine Triple God as the counterpart to the Triple Goddess. One version I have encountered calls this triad the Warrior, Father, and Elder. That may shed some light on GRRM's other male deities. The Stranger, however, seems to be a figure apart, both by origin and in the way GRRM portrays him.
In short, it's all good sound bog-standard paganism-by-numbers stuff, rather incongruously welded to a hierarchical clergy loosely derived from the Catholic Church. This is a common failing of fantasy writers who want to evoke the cultures of mediaeval Europe, and therefore require a Church, but do not want to have anything resembling Christianity in their work. The fact that no non-Christian religion has ever evolved a hierarchy resembling that of the Catholic Church, and that no non-Christian society has ever developed the salient characteristics of mediaeval Europe, does nothing to discourage those writers who want to have their cake and eat it too — or perhaps I should say, who want to have their sacramental wafers without having a sacrament.
(As a counterexample, I would point to the sun-religion of Jad in Guy Gavriel Kay's more recent books. This is a non-Christian religion clearly intended to fulfil the functions of Christianity in a close analogue of mediaeval society, but unlike the mishmash of pagan traditions usually offered in that role, Jaddism is constructed in such a way as to be a plausible analogue of Christianity.)
By the way, it is scarcely true that the Greek or Roman gods 'each represent a certain part of human nature'. They are in fact representatives of non-human nature. Poseidon is the sea, Zeus the sky and the thunder, Pluto the depths of the earth, etc. The closest that any of the Twelve Olympians comes to being the manifestation of a human trait is Aphrodite, who, however, represents the sexual impulse in all living things and not in humans only.
The Smith is another borrowing from generalized folklore. Smith-gods are found in Iron Age (and even Bronze Age) cultures from Scandinavia to West Africa, and unlike the various triads of goddesses, share enough specific traits to clearly point to a common origin. For instance, almost all smith-gods in Western cultures are said to be lame — a telling biographical detail, as there is no logical or necessary connexion between metallurgical skill and the inability to walk. (Robert Graves suggests that this comes from a practice in early Iron Age cultures of cutting the hamstrings of the tribal smith so that he could not escape and teach other tribes to work iron. This is blatantly silly, and for two reasons. First, there is no evidence of such a practice anywhere; it is purely an ad hoc invention to account for this one curious common feature of the various myths. Second, it is stupid to suppose that such a practice could spread all the way from Russia to Ghana or thereabouts. If every tribe from here to yonder already knows how to work iron, there is no conceivable point in hamstringing your smith to keep his trade secrets in the tribe. At that point, he hasn't got any trade secrets. But then, logical thinking was never Graves's strongest point.) It is fairly safe to assume that the figure of the Smith was borrowed by one culture after another from a common point of origin, perhaps in one of the earliest Iron Age cultures of Asia Minor.
Some neopagan writers like to offer a masculine Triple God as the counterpart to the Triple Goddess. One version I have encountered calls this triad the Warrior, Father, and Elder. That may shed some light on GRRM's other male deities. The Stranger, however, seems to be a figure apart, both by origin and in the way GRRM portrays him.
In short, it's all good sound bog-standard paganism-by-numbers stuff, rather incongruously welded to a hierarchical clergy loosely derived from the Catholic Church. This is a common failing of fantasy writers who want to evoke the cultures of mediaeval Europe, and therefore require a Church, but do not want to have anything resembling Christianity in their work. The fact that no non-Christian religion has ever evolved a hierarchy resembling that of the Catholic Church, and that no non-Christian society has ever developed the salient characteristics of mediaeval Europe, does nothing to discourage those writers who want to have their cake and eat it too — or perhaps I should say, who want to have their sacramental wafers without having a sacrament.
(As a counterexample, I would point to the sun-religion of Jad in Guy Gavriel Kay's more recent books. This is a non-Christian religion clearly intended to fulfil the functions of Christianity in a close analogue of mediaeval society, but unlike the mishmash of pagan traditions usually offered in that role, Jaddism is constructed in such a way as to be a plausible analogue of Christianity.)
By the way, it is scarcely true that the Greek or Roman gods 'each represent a certain part of human nature'. They are in fact representatives of non-human nature. Poseidon is the sea, Zeus the sky and the thunder, Pluto the depths of the earth, etc. The closest that any of the Twelve Olympians comes to being the manifestation of a human trait is Aphrodite, who, however, represents the sexual impulse in all living things and not in humans only.
Without the Quest, our lives will be wasted.
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Roland of Gilead
- <i>Haruchai</i>
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Good post, Variol, especially your point regarding the confusing attempt by fantasy writers to evoke a medieval culture without the "taint" of Christianity.
I've noticed that discrepancy, too, but never could articulate it as well as you just did.
I've noticed that discrepancy, too, but never could articulate it as well as you just did.
"I am, in short, a man on the edge of everything." - Dark Tower II, The Drawing of the Three
theres evidence of the 7 being active. as much evidence of that as any other god. witness davos dream and possible rebirth by the mother... lancel having his life saved as well. but its clear imo if the 7 have a champion its davos.
on a side note the sept worship is actually borrowing more from hinduism in terms of superficial structure then christianity. ie the multiple gods who are in fact all representations of one greater god.
on a side note the sept worship is actually borrowing more from hinduism in terms of superficial structure then christianity. ie the multiple gods who are in fact all representations of one greater god.
[quote8b36b="Variol Farseer"]Maid, Mother and Crone are the usual modern names for the Triple Goddess beloved of neopagan folklorists. Various European mythologies had analogous divinities: the Norns, the Moirae, and as Lloyd Alexander put it, some other manifestations that they would probably rather not admit to openly. The classical form (in all senses of the word) was the Greek one, of course ? the Fates, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos. Whether these triads of minor divinities ever had the high (even dominant) status that neopagan theorists like to impute to them is, however, quite doubtful, and in some case the theorists may be drawing false identities between groups of goddesses that are not related either by origin or function.
The Smith is another borrowing from generalized folklore. Smith-gods are found in Iron Age (and even Bronze Age) cultures from Scandinavia to West Africa, and unlike the various triads of goddesses, share enough specific traits to clearly point to a common origin. For instance, almost all smith-gods in Western cultures are said to be lame ? a telling biographical detail, as there is no logical or necessary connexion between metallurgical skill and the inability to walk. (Robert Graves suggests that this comes from a practice in early Iron Age cultures of cutting the hamstrings of the tribal smith so that he could not escape and teach other tribes to work iron. This is blatantly silly, and for two reasons. First, there is no evidence of such a practice anywhere; it is purely an [i8b36b]ad hoc[/i8b36b] invention to account for this one curious common feature of the various myths. Second, it is stupid to suppose that such a practice could [i8b36b]spread[/i8b36b] all the way from Russia to Ghana or thereabouts. If every tribe from here to yonder already knows how to work iron, there is no conceivable point in hamstringing your smith to keep his trade secrets in the tribe. At that point, he hasn't got any trade secrets. But then, logical thinking was never Graves's strongest point.) It is fairly safe to assume that the figure of the Smith was borrowed by one culture after another from a common point of origin, perhaps in one of the earliest Iron Age cultures of Asia Minor.
Some neopagan writers like to offer a masculine Triple God as the counterpart to the Triple Goddess. One version I have encountered calls this triad the Warrior, Father, and Elder. That may shed some light on GRRM's other male deities. The Stranger, however, seems to be a figure apart, both by origin and in the way GRRM portrays him.
In short, it's all good sound bog-standard paganism-by-numbers stuff, rather incongruously welded to a hierarchical clergy loosely derived from the Catholic Church. This is a common failing of fantasy writers who want to evoke the cultures of mediaeval Europe, and therefore require a Church, but do [i8b36b]not[/i8b36b] want to have anything resembling Christianity in their work. The fact that no non-Christian religion has ever evolved a hierarchy resembling that of the Catholic Church, and that no non-Christian society has ever developed the salient characteristics of mediaeval Europe, does nothing to discourage those writers who want to have their cake and eat it too ? or perhaps I should say, who want to have their sacramental wafers without having a sacrament.
(As a counterexample, I would point to the sun-religion of Jad in Guy Gavriel Kay's more recent books. This is a non-Christian religion clearly intended to fulfil the functions of Christianity in a close analogue of mediaeval society, but unlike the mishmash of pagan traditions usually offered in that role, Jaddism is constructed in such a way as to be a plausible analogue of Christianity.)
By the way, it is scarcely true that the Greek or Roman gods 'each represent a certain part of human nature'. They are in fact representatives of [i8b36b]non-[/i8b36b]human nature. Poseidon is the sea, Zeus the sky and the thunder, Pluto the depths of the earth, etc. The closest that any of the Twelve Olympians comes to being the manifestation of a human trait is Aphrodite, who, however, represents the sexual impulse in all living things and not in humans only.[/quote8b36b]
Excellent post!
And thanks for all that effort.
The Smith is another borrowing from generalized folklore. Smith-gods are found in Iron Age (and even Bronze Age) cultures from Scandinavia to West Africa, and unlike the various triads of goddesses, share enough specific traits to clearly point to a common origin. For instance, almost all smith-gods in Western cultures are said to be lame ? a telling biographical detail, as there is no logical or necessary connexion between metallurgical skill and the inability to walk. (Robert Graves suggests that this comes from a practice in early Iron Age cultures of cutting the hamstrings of the tribal smith so that he could not escape and teach other tribes to work iron. This is blatantly silly, and for two reasons. First, there is no evidence of such a practice anywhere; it is purely an [i8b36b]ad hoc[/i8b36b] invention to account for this one curious common feature of the various myths. Second, it is stupid to suppose that such a practice could [i8b36b]spread[/i8b36b] all the way from Russia to Ghana or thereabouts. If every tribe from here to yonder already knows how to work iron, there is no conceivable point in hamstringing your smith to keep his trade secrets in the tribe. At that point, he hasn't got any trade secrets. But then, logical thinking was never Graves's strongest point.) It is fairly safe to assume that the figure of the Smith was borrowed by one culture after another from a common point of origin, perhaps in one of the earliest Iron Age cultures of Asia Minor.
Some neopagan writers like to offer a masculine Triple God as the counterpart to the Triple Goddess. One version I have encountered calls this triad the Warrior, Father, and Elder. That may shed some light on GRRM's other male deities. The Stranger, however, seems to be a figure apart, both by origin and in the way GRRM portrays him.
In short, it's all good sound bog-standard paganism-by-numbers stuff, rather incongruously welded to a hierarchical clergy loosely derived from the Catholic Church. This is a common failing of fantasy writers who want to evoke the cultures of mediaeval Europe, and therefore require a Church, but do [i8b36b]not[/i8b36b] want to have anything resembling Christianity in their work. The fact that no non-Christian religion has ever evolved a hierarchy resembling that of the Catholic Church, and that no non-Christian society has ever developed the salient characteristics of mediaeval Europe, does nothing to discourage those writers who want to have their cake and eat it too ? or perhaps I should say, who want to have their sacramental wafers without having a sacrament.
(As a counterexample, I would point to the sun-religion of Jad in Guy Gavriel Kay's more recent books. This is a non-Christian religion clearly intended to fulfil the functions of Christianity in a close analogue of mediaeval society, but unlike the mishmash of pagan traditions usually offered in that role, Jaddism is constructed in such a way as to be a plausible analogue of Christianity.)
By the way, it is scarcely true that the Greek or Roman gods 'each represent a certain part of human nature'. They are in fact representatives of [i8b36b]non-[/i8b36b]human nature. Poseidon is the sea, Zeus the sky and the thunder, Pluto the depths of the earth, etc. The closest that any of the Twelve Olympians comes to being the manifestation of a human trait is Aphrodite, who, however, represents the sexual impulse in all living things and not in humans only.[/quote8b36b]
Excellent post!
And thanks for all that effort.
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Caer Bombadil
- Woodhelvennin
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Gimme that -- old time religion, it's good enough for me
The original Old Gods and the weirwoods were apparently worshipped by the autochthonous neolithic Children of the Forest before the First Men arrived. They and their faith seem rather shamanistic and druidic in character. Their faith may have in some way taken the Others, and whatever they came from or served, into account. Incidentally, it appears that the Children had learned at some point
The bronze-age First Men may have brought religions with them that were largely forgotten long before the Andals came. It was stated after the Pact went into effect and the Age of Heroes began, many of the peoples of First Men adopted the Old Gods from the Children of the Forest. One might speculate that this process might have involved varying degrees of displacement and syncretism. The ancestors of the Starks seem to have adopted a nearly pure Old religion.
The ironmen were descended from First Men, and apparently mingled somewhat with the Andals later. One might speculate the Drowned God could have been derived in part from a First Men faith, with influences of the Old Gods and the religion of the Andals mixed in theru the millenia.
The iron-age Andals brought the faith of the Seven and a sort of "high church" that makes me think of perhaps the Roman and Greek state religions, from which the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches adopted many techniques and approaches (if not theology). As of the time of ASoI&F the septons seemed to have little influence though their blessing continued to legitimize the state in the eyes of the people thru the Targareyn dynasty and King Robert's reign. I'll speculate that perhaps before Aegon's day, the Andals could have invested real power in the religion of the Seven, and the High Septon might have resembled the Pope or at least a Patriarch or Primate in secular influence. Maybe the Targaryens put them in their place. In any event, the Andal religion seems to have been designed for popular consumption and for legitimizing state and king more so than for merely gaining divine favor.
The red faith R'hollorism was a recent import from the East. It apparently features a strong dualism and seems very like Zoroastrianism in some respects, even if some of the laudatory language seems like praises for Christ. (I think similar honorifics were offered to Ahura Mazda as well.). Obviously its adepts are real sorcerors and mystics. One must conclude that R'hollor represents some real power. The red priestess Melisandre (sp?) spoke of a dark divinity counterpart to R'hollor, and
Finally, there was at least one more faith extant in Westeros: a dark worship or fear of the Others among those north of the Wall.
Spoiler
obsidian weapons were efficacious against the Others, a fact apparently since forgotten.
The bronze-age First Men may have brought religions with them that were largely forgotten long before the Andals came. It was stated after the Pact went into effect and the Age of Heroes began, many of the peoples of First Men adopted the Old Gods from the Children of the Forest. One might speculate that this process might have involved varying degrees of displacement and syncretism. The ancestors of the Starks seem to have adopted a nearly pure Old religion.
The ironmen were descended from First Men, and apparently mingled somewhat with the Andals later. One might speculate the Drowned God could have been derived in part from a First Men faith, with influences of the Old Gods and the religion of the Andals mixed in theru the millenia.
The iron-age Andals brought the faith of the Seven and a sort of "high church" that makes me think of perhaps the Roman and Greek state religions, from which the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches adopted many techniques and approaches (if not theology). As of the time of ASoI&F the septons seemed to have little influence though their blessing continued to legitimize the state in the eyes of the people thru the Targareyn dynasty and King Robert's reign. I'll speculate that perhaps before Aegon's day, the Andals could have invested real power in the religion of the Seven, and the High Septon might have resembled the Pope or at least a Patriarch or Primate in secular influence. Maybe the Targaryens put them in their place. In any event, the Andal religion seems to have been designed for popular consumption and for legitimizing state and king more so than for merely gaining divine favor.
The red faith R'hollorism was a recent import from the East. It apparently features a strong dualism and seems very like Zoroastrianism in some respects, even if some of the laudatory language seems like praises for Christ. (I think similar honorifics were offered to Ahura Mazda as well.). Obviously its adepts are real sorcerors and mystics. One must conclude that R'hollor represents some real power. The red priestess Melisandre (sp?) spoke of a dark divinity counterpart to R'hollor, and
Spoiler
seems to identify the mysterious alien power behind the Others in the far north with it.
Finally, there was at least one more faith extant in Westeros: a dark worship or fear of the Others among those north of the Wall.
Spoiler
Craster sacrificed his sons to "the gods" which seem to be the Others. In some fashion, he seems to have purchased a truce with them. Mance Rayder's people seem to have some kind of understanding with the Others as well, though it is also hinted that the wildlings were in large part fleeing from them.
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Caer Bombadil
- Woodhelvennin
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I remember that statement being made, but haven't been able to find it again. I am unclear whether the quote & its alleged source indicated this was official doctrine, or one unofficial interpretation of the septons' teachings? It's interesting, though. That doctrine would make the faith of the Seven comparable perhaps to modern Hinduism, which (according to my very limited understanding) explains the multiple gods and everything else as manifestations of the singular All, even though most ordinary worshippers express reverence for one or more particular god or goddess or avatar (e.g. Siva, Krishna, Kali, etc).OsRavan wrote:actualy the worship of the seven is NOT polytheistic. The seven are all aspacts of one god... its only the common people who have trouble grasping this. the septons and learned people all view the religion as being monotheistic in nature
(Bonus question: Could the correct adjective, that signifies "resembling or having to do with septs and septons," perhaps be septic?
)BTW does anyone get the impression a tribute to H.P. Lovecraft might be embedded in the culture of the ironmen? What was the profession of faith we kept hearing from Uncle Aemon Damphair & others, something like (drat! DHBWM!) "That which is drowned can never die"? Does that remind anybody of a certain well-known passage from the Necronomicon? And doesn't the "kraken" sigil of House Greyjoy remind anybody of a certain somebody currently enjoying a nice long nappiepoo under the ocean, who will settle some scores when he awakens from his beauty sleep? Maybe instead of "We Do Not Sow," the motto should've been "Cthulhu Fhtagn?"
yeah it is the official doctrine. In books 1-3 we have several mentions of it but are unsure whether it is jsut a philosiphy or official doctrine. However in book 4 a septon relates how it *is* the official doctrine, but that it is accepted policy not to try and explain it to the average person, as it is needlesly complicated for them (im simplifying but thats the idea). SO many commoners wont be aware of the 7 aspects of one god. However trained septons and educated lords will be aware that that is the way the gods work.
As to lovercraft not having read his book i cant say if that is a reference. I know for a fact there is a reference to him (as there are to many authors.. vance, jordan etc) in the book. Whether that is a tribute i dont know. I doubt the *whole* ironmen would be a tribute since thats prob a little too broad, but i dont know
As to lovercraft not having read his book i cant say if that is a reference. I know for a fact there is a reference to him (as there are to many authors.. vance, jordan etc) in the book. Whether that is a tribute i dont know. I doubt the *whole* ironmen would be a tribute since thats prob a little too broad, but i dont know
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Caer Bombadil
- Woodhelvennin
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I just finished AF4C a few days ago. Given what was revealed about the authority of the High Septon and the old militant orders supressed by the early Targareyns and foolishly revived by Cersei, I guess my speculations in the March 1st post turn out not to be too far off the mark! Apparently the "Septic Church" was pretty powerful in Andal times.
It is said with some truth that there is no progress without loss; and it is always said, by those who wish to destroy good things, that progress requires it. No great insight or experience of the world is necessary to see that such people really care nothing for progress. They wish to destroy for their profit, and they, being clever, try to persuade us that progress and change are synonymous.
- Gene Wolfe
- Gene Wolfe