The characters in the book are thinking that the Land can withstand another hundred years of the caesures. I think they are wrong. Doom is nigh upon them!
Let's see... A caesure is created whenever Joan strikes at her forehead. Since a caesure exists in all the points of the time, it can be described as doing "at once" all the damage it's ever going to do, from the four-dimensional view, of course. So the Land will only be destroyed due to caesures if Joan creates enough of them and the speed with which this doom approaches is only related to the speed at which Joan is making the caesures. If Joan were to stop making caesures, the Arch of Time would not be shattered, but the Land would keep having all those nasty (and bigger in the "downstream") caesures around, unless someone with a lot of power and time went to the trouble of shutting them down one by one.
Anyway, as Joan is in the Land now, her local time is accelerated some 365 times. Instead a hundred years, the Land would keep standing a hundred days if all things were equal, and I don't think they are. Joan has no Linden or hospital staff to put her in restraints, and no barrier between the worlds to hinder her possession. At the end of Runes the Land might have only weeks or even days.
I think Linden will eventually notice this little factoid and develop a need to get to Joan... quickly. I think she'll end up using a caesure again to reach her in time and stop her. On a lighter note, the trip to Joan is also the perfect opportunity to meet Giants again, since Joan is by the seashore and the Giants would come from the sea.
I don't think Joan has actually a chance of really destroying the Arch of Time. I've written in another thread how "the necessity of freedom" would prevent it, and I don't think Lord Foul would allow Herem to possess Joan if he thought Joan's ring could be used to that big an effect. Foul would possess her himself in that situation.
So I think we'll end up with a stable but greatly weakened Arch and the Land in a very bad shape before it's the time for the real climax to roll in.
Joan's Swift Doom of the Land
Moderator: dlbpharmd
I agree, Joan is under Foul's control and therefore a tool.I don't think Joan has actually a chance of really destroying the Arch of Time. I've written in another thread how "the necessity of freedom" would prevent it, and I don't think Lord Foul would allow Herem to possess Joan if he thought Joan's ring could be used to that big an effect. Foul would possess her himself in that situation.
Agreed. SRD stated in the GI that only TC has the freedom and the 'link' to the white gold to have enough power to bring down the arch of time. Thus the part about him having to turn over his ring freely. Don't know how Joan fits into that. Her mental state, would that constitute freedom? Does she have the 'link' to the white gold? Or can there be only one in the land that is the white gold?
I'm not so sure, dlb. I tend to believe that Covenant and white gold have always shared a special link, that no other white gold bearer has. Consider that the white gold ring isn't just a ring to Covenant: it is his wedding ring, full of implications as that is, and it had a much greater significance for him than the average wedding ring has for normal people, because it reminded him of the time before his leprosy, it reminded him of his humanity, and was the symbol of his willpower - or fidelity, if you prefer. The significance Covenant invested in the ring made that ring especially precious and attuned to him, and given that magic in fantasy is usually symbolism, such an enormous significance would translate as enormous potential in the Land. Joan could have maybe a similar power, were she free of Foul and his Ravers; however, given that she isn't, she has been made a tool, and therefore she is limited and lacks the power to breach the Arch. Besides, the significance she gives to her wedding ring, although undoubtly great, probably pales in comparison to the one Covenant gave to his.
As for Roger, I very much doubt he would ever have such power. Even if he were free of Foul's compulsions - which he isn't - the white gold rings would simply not have the significance or importance for him that they have for his parents; to him, they'd just be gold rings, pretty and powerful (in the Land) but in no way so important - and therefore so powerful - as they would be for Covenant and Joan. Incidentally, this explains why he didn't just buy a white gold ring in a jewelry store and went to the Land to give it to Foul.
Also, such a theory also explains two other things: first of all, if the power of wild magic is linked to the significance that the wielder invests in the ring, this means that if a person is Raving, for example, the power of the ring diminishes because the spirit that is in control (the Raver) simply does not invest the same significance in the ring as his controlled person. And of course, if a person is compelled to serve Foul, and becomes his tool, he is giving in to Despite and repudiating all that made the ring so special in the first place.
Second, the necessity of freely receiving the ring rather than stealing it. A stolen ring has no particular significance to the thief - he may have coveted it, he may appreciate it or be obsessed by it, but the act of stealing doesn't attach any particular significance to the ring itself. A freely given gift, instead, is much more significant - because the ring then becomes a symbol, and as important for the receiver as it is for the giver.
Take Linden and how the white gold ring is dear to her as a symbol of her "marriage" to Covenant, and a memento of his love: therein is the great significance (and power) of the ring. Vice versa, take the example floating about of Roger buying a white gold ring in a jewelry store, or stealing it from his mother: what added significance does the ring possess in such a situation? None: hence, little power.
As for Roger, I very much doubt he would ever have such power. Even if he were free of Foul's compulsions - which he isn't - the white gold rings would simply not have the significance or importance for him that they have for his parents; to him, they'd just be gold rings, pretty and powerful (in the Land) but in no way so important - and therefore so powerful - as they would be for Covenant and Joan. Incidentally, this explains why he didn't just buy a white gold ring in a jewelry store and went to the Land to give it to Foul.
Also, such a theory also explains two other things: first of all, if the power of wild magic is linked to the significance that the wielder invests in the ring, this means that if a person is Raving, for example, the power of the ring diminishes because the spirit that is in control (the Raver) simply does not invest the same significance in the ring as his controlled person. And of course, if a person is compelled to serve Foul, and becomes his tool, he is giving in to Despite and repudiating all that made the ring so special in the first place.
Second, the necessity of freely receiving the ring rather than stealing it. A stolen ring has no particular significance to the thief - he may have coveted it, he may appreciate it or be obsessed by it, but the act of stealing doesn't attach any particular significance to the ring itself. A freely given gift, instead, is much more significant - because the ring then becomes a symbol, and as important for the receiver as it is for the giver.
Take Linden and how the white gold ring is dear to her as a symbol of her "marriage" to Covenant, and a memento of his love: therein is the great significance (and power) of the ring. Vice versa, take the example floating about of Roger buying a white gold ring in a jewelry store, or stealing it from his mother: what added significance does the ring possess in such a situation? None: hence, little power.
Good points, Xar. In rebuttal:
1) I do tend to believe that Covenant and Joan, because of their marriage, have the same symbolic standing in the Land (in a "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder" kind of way.) SRD, because of his Christian upbringing, has placed these types of symbols in the Chronicles before. Just as Covenant was deeply connected to the Land in 1st Chronicles, Joan is connected in 2nd Chronicles and now in Final Chronicles. In a similar fashion, I theorize that the wedding rings are also connected, as the obvious symbol of their marriage.
In other words, just as Covenant and Joan are "one body," the rings are one as well, and have the same power.
It would be interesting to know just how Joan was affected during 1st Chronicles. Remember that Covenant suffered a relapse of his leprosy, had starved himself, and suffered other hurts. Did Joan suffer any physical symptoms during this time? All we know is she attempted to contact Covenant at the beginning of TIW. However upon further reflection, it's obvious that Joan's connection to the Land is more of a mental or perhaps I should say spiritual connection, so it's doubtful that she exhibited any physical symptoms, but perhaps she did have early depression or some other type of symptomatic mental illness. Just me speculating, for what it's worth.
2) I believe that Joan does place a similar level of significance to her wedding ring - it is, after all, the symbol of her failed marriage. It reminds her of how she betrayed her husband when he needed her most. It is therefore a symbol of despair to her, and we know that despair is a source of great power.
You make a compelling argument about Joan and the necessity of freedom. However I can't help but wonder if, were Joan to become sane and also free of the Despiser's influence, would she act in a way that would be of benefit to the Land, or would she act to destroy it?
1) I do tend to believe that Covenant and Joan, because of their marriage, have the same symbolic standing in the Land (in a "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder" kind of way.) SRD, because of his Christian upbringing, has placed these types of symbols in the Chronicles before. Just as Covenant was deeply connected to the Land in 1st Chronicles, Joan is connected in 2nd Chronicles and now in Final Chronicles. In a similar fashion, I theorize that the wedding rings are also connected, as the obvious symbol of their marriage.
In other words, just as Covenant and Joan are "one body," the rings are one as well, and have the same power.
It would be interesting to know just how Joan was affected during 1st Chronicles. Remember that Covenant suffered a relapse of his leprosy, had starved himself, and suffered other hurts. Did Joan suffer any physical symptoms during this time? All we know is she attempted to contact Covenant at the beginning of TIW. However upon further reflection, it's obvious that Joan's connection to the Land is more of a mental or perhaps I should say spiritual connection, so it's doubtful that she exhibited any physical symptoms, but perhaps she did have early depression or some other type of symptomatic mental illness. Just me speculating, for what it's worth.
2) I believe that Joan does place a similar level of significance to her wedding ring - it is, after all, the symbol of her failed marriage. It reminds her of how she betrayed her husband when he needed her most. It is therefore a symbol of despair to her, and we know that despair is a source of great power.
You make a compelling argument about Joan and the necessity of freedom. However I can't help but wonder if, were Joan to become sane and also free of the Despiser's influence, would she act in a way that would be of benefit to the Land, or would she act to destroy it?
-
finn
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:03 am
- Location: Maintaining an unsociable distance....
I too think the rings have symbolic weight. The fidelity and integrity that TCs ring has come to symbolise is measured against the very opposite in Joan.
Having said that is TC's integrity and fidelity a result of his principles or his inability to replace Joan with someone off of the Leper Adult Contacts web site? He ditches his fidelity pretty quickly to be with Linden. Equally, Joan had a change of heart and wanted to try to undo much of the hurt she'd inflicted on TC.
However.....
Another point tho', I'm not sure that the rings are so resticted to their owners and I'm not sure that the theft of one might not allow the thief to use it, the limiting factor to my mind is the power/lore/knowledge to be able to use it. The give-it-up-freely theme seems more LOTR.
Having said that is TC's integrity and fidelity a result of his principles or his inability to replace Joan with someone off of the Leper Adult Contacts web site? He ditches his fidelity pretty quickly to be with Linden. Equally, Joan had a change of heart and wanted to try to undo much of the hurt she'd inflicted on TC.
However.....
Another point tho', I'm not sure that the rings are so resticted to their owners and I'm not sure that the theft of one might not allow the thief to use it, the limiting factor to my mind is the power/lore/knowledge to be able to use it. The give-it-up-freely theme seems more LOTR.
-
finn
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:03 am
- Location: Maintaining an unsociable distance....
Given that he's probably not spoilt for options during that 10 years then yes.
Remember he raped Lena, had what almost amounted to an incestuous affair with Elena in Chronicles #1, then up and tups Linden in Chronicles #2.
I figure as a Leper there was little chance to get it on in the real world; not much on the Leprosy club scene in and around Haven Farm, I'd guess.
So given 10 years and three opportunities he takes two and is close to a third even if not physically consumating things!
Remember he raped Lena, had what almost amounted to an incestuous affair with Elena in Chronicles #1, then up and tups Linden in Chronicles #2.
I figure as a Leper there was little chance to get it on in the real world; not much on the Leprosy club scene in and around Haven Farm, I'd guess.
So given 10 years and three opportunities he takes two and is close to a third even if not physically consumating things!
-
variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5777
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:07 pm
- Location: New Zealand
I would say however that Covenant actually loves Linden - he felt pity for Lena and cared for Elena as his daughter, but Linden he loved as if they were married. Sure they had sex, but the context of that sex was entirely different to his rape of Lena and his odd relationship with Elena.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
-
finn
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:03 am
- Location: Maintaining an unsociable distance....
I think that in the "context" of words like integrity and fidelity, there can be no case for contexts. What's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. Stealing because you are hungry is no different to stealing for pure avarice...its still theft.
Whatever the issues that might surround TC's fidelity to Joan, he has nonetheless maintained it and that the ring is a symbol of it. But he seems to have been living a lie (IMO), as his fidelity is not tested until Lena and he fails that test, he then all but consumates a relationship with Elena, a test he doesn't fail but equally only passes by default. He then spends 10years back in the real world where he can shrink back to his supposed "fidelity" and again not be tested.
He then meet Linden and fails the test yet again.
The fidelity his ring is supposed to symbolisere is pure bull. He demonstrates fidelity only when there are no other viable options; at the first sign of a bit of trim he in like Flynn!
Likewise Joan's ring is in reality a symbol of her desertion of her husband. The rationalisation that she was protecting their son from Leprosy was wholly out of proportion to the threat, given the information we have been provided with about leprosy in a recent thread. She deserted her husband when he needed her most and isolated him from his child.
Neither have anything to be proud about in the symbols their rings have become for each of them, thus the foundation in the rings' symbolic weight is flawed. Both Joan and TC have not yet resolved their issues (their own individual issues or joint issues) otherwise the rings would long ago have been consigned to the river-bed or a box in a cupboard somewhere.
Whatever the issues that might surround TC's fidelity to Joan, he has nonetheless maintained it and that the ring is a symbol of it. But he seems to have been living a lie (IMO), as his fidelity is not tested until Lena and he fails that test, he then all but consumates a relationship with Elena, a test he doesn't fail but equally only passes by default. He then spends 10years back in the real world where he can shrink back to his supposed "fidelity" and again not be tested.
He then meet Linden and fails the test yet again.
The fidelity his ring is supposed to symbolisere is pure bull. He demonstrates fidelity only when there are no other viable options; at the first sign of a bit of trim he in like Flynn!
Likewise Joan's ring is in reality a symbol of her desertion of her husband. The rationalisation that she was protecting their son from Leprosy was wholly out of proportion to the threat, given the information we have been provided with about leprosy in a recent thread. She deserted her husband when he needed her most and isolated him from his child.
Neither have anything to be proud about in the symbols their rings have become for each of them, thus the foundation in the rings' symbolic weight is flawed. Both Joan and TC have not yet resolved their issues (their own individual issues or joint issues) otherwise the rings would long ago have been consigned to the river-bed or a box in a cupboard somewhere.
Well, Joan DID divorce Covenant. I don't think it was wrong for the poor man to start again with someone else.
I think it's significant how in TPTP Covenant switches his ring from the left hand to the right, like some widowers do. I think that's when he symbolically frees himself from Joan's shadow and opens the door for him to enjoy life again.
I think it's significant how in TPTP Covenant switches his ring from the left hand to the right, like some widowers do. I think that's when he symbolically frees himself from Joan's shadow and opens the door for him to enjoy life again.
-
finn
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:03 am
- Location: Maintaining an unsociable distance....
But during this period TC still wore the ring and it was a symbol of his fidelity and that is the point at issue despite what Joan does, TC retains at least the illusion of his vows.
However your second point is well taken, and sees TC move on from the lie of "fidelity" which he may have professed but never lived, to a more harmonious accommodation of his circumstances.
However your second point is well taken, and sees TC move on from the lie of "fidelity" which he may have professed but never lived, to a more harmonious accommodation of his circumstances.