My visceral reaction is that someone needs to put the bitch down.
The larger issues, though, are still as complex as they ever were: So we are angry about the Yates case, and feel that a miscarriage occured, etc. What of it? In order to keep Yates in jail, we'd have to re-vamp our court system, and do away with many protections that keep the mob away from our doors, should we ever find ourselves innocent, but accused. To muck about with our courts in that fashion is tricky and dangerous in the best of times, but now, when we've got folks talking continually about politicizing the courts under the guise of "Fixing Activist Judges?"
(I can't believe I'm going to say this...)
Putting the innocent accused at risk, in order to get at a few high-profile, horrific cases - that'd be like-
Nope.
Not gonna say it.
Un-b-effin'-lievable!
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
That makes no sense.
Look, all I'm saying is that the verdict is bullshit. She clearly is guilty, what's at issue is her mental state and whether or noth that mitigates her guilt. For her to be found not guilty is a travesty.
Look, all I'm saying is that the verdict is bullshit. She clearly is guilty, what's at issue is her mental state and whether or noth that mitigates her guilt. For her to be found not guilty is a travesty.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Lord Mhoram
- Lord
- Posts: 9512
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Fist and Faith
- Magister Vitae
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Finally, we agree. Heh. Of course, we disagree on what her mental state was (You have declared her sane, I say there's a reasonable doubt.), and whether or not insanity mitigates guilt (You say no, I say yes). Holy #$%^, I hate to even think such things, but if I knew my kids were going to suffer horribly, and there was no other way to stop or prevent it, I know I'd seriously consider killing them. What if they were about to be shipped to a Nazi death camp. Truly, I don't know what I'd do. If I did it, I'd hate myself. If I didn't do it, I'd hate myself. Either way, I sure hope I wouldn't live long myself.Cail wrote:She clearly is guilty, what's at issue is her mental state and whether or noth that mitigates her guilt.
One of the perks of some types of insanity, I'm told, is that it gives you absolute surety about things. If Yates was absolutely sure that life is horror (which is the only view many people with her problem have of life), then her killing them is more understandable. Like that movie Beloved, when Oprah Winfrey's character, an ex-slave, killed one baby and tried to kill another when her former owner showed up to claim them all. In her case, her surety that their life would be horror was not the result of insanity.
Hey, I don't think I'm stretching things with any of this. Some Watchers can speak with more authority, so I'll wait to be corrected. But I don't think I've suggested anything that's unheard of. This stuff happens.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Actually Fist, I haven't declared her sane. I have no insight into her mental state. I don't care what her mental state was. She killed her five children and there's no argument about that. Reasonable doubt doesn't come into play. She is clearly guilty and is not being punished for her horrible crime.
And beffore anyone says it, yes godammit, I want my pound of flesh.
And beffore anyone says it, yes godammit, I want my pound of flesh.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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There are some states who have a verdict "Guilty by reason of Insanity" rather than the Texas verdict of "Not Guilty by reason of Insanity".Lord Mhoram wrote:Could she have been found guilty, but still declared insane and put into an institution?
For, me, I'm nto even sure it's about the pound of flesh. It's more about the woman was capable of committing such a horrible crime. I don't believe that's something you can fix by declaring someone insane, and fixing their mind. Once the human psyche goes that far over the edge, the person will never be safe to be on the streets ever again. Lock in an institution for life, put her in jail for life, execute her, or simply put her under house arrest after taking away her ability to have kids. I personally don't care which, just make sure she can't have kids or be walking around on the streets. Surely people who believe Child Molestation isn't curable don't believe killing your own five kids is curable, no?
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wayfriend
- .
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Cail wrote:There you go, backwards reasoning. I presume she must be held accountable, therefore the retrial that found her not accountable but insane is "rediculous". (And incidentallly, if it helps to believe that I am a better judge of this matter than a real judge and a real jury: heck, I'll believe that too.)Wayfriend wrote:Wrongo. The first trial she was found guilty and given a life sentence. Due to an absolutely ridiculous technicality there was a retrial.
I rest my case.Cail wrote:And beffore anyone says it, yes godammit, I want my pound of flesh.
.
How is that backwards reasoning? Wayfriend, she admitted her guilt. Her legal team never denied her guilt. She's guilty because she did it.
And I never said the retrial was ridiculous, did I? I said the Law and Order testimony that caused the retrial was ridiculous.
And if you think that criminals shouldn't be held accountable for their crimes.....Thank God you're not a judge.
And I never said the retrial was ridiculous, did I? I said the Law and Order testimony that caused the retrial was ridiculous.
And if you think that criminals shouldn't be held accountable for their crimes.....Thank God you're not a judge.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Guilty BUT insane... I've heard of that.Lord Mhoram wrote:Could she have been found guilty, but still declared insane and put into an institution?
"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. "
- John Stuart Mill, English philosopher
- John Stuart Mill, English philosopher
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wayfriend
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BTW for chassit: I am profoundly sorry to hear about how this has affected you. It's probably not the safest thing to do to take that into the 'Tank, unless you got titanium skin. I would't discredit your feelings one jot, but everything you've said indicates an emotional (non-objective) opinion ... which is exactly what should never be used to resolve a legal issue. Anyway ... just wanted to say, you're words were appreciated.
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Well, thank you. It passed, and I've dealt.Wayfriend wrote:BTW for chassit: I am profoundly sorry to hear about how this has affected you.
I do.It's probably not the safest thing to do to take that into the 'Tank, unless you got titanium skin.
I don't mind adding a bit of just realness or humanity to a thread, either. Like I said, it was a moment, and I'd never use it to debate a case. Just pointing out the horror of what this woman did, and how that does play, whether it should or not, into how we treat the accused.Thanks again.I would't discredit your feelings one jot, but everything you've said indicates an emotional (non-objective) opinion ... which is exactly what should never be used to resolve a legal issue. Anyway ... just wanted to say, you're words were appreciated.
I'm all for being objective. It's just... some things are just too much of an affront to civilization to abide, I guess. This crime made such big news because it was so horrible. This kind of thing is why even hardened criminals will kill their fellow inmates when they're known to have hurt children. A little good, justified rage never hurt anyone (except who it should...
)"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. "
- John Stuart Mill, English philosopher
- John Stuart Mill, English philosopher
Let me try taking another tack.
Let's assume for the moment that Andrea Yates was insane when she committed the crimes. That is to say, she was not in her right mind at the time, which means (in Texas at least) that she's not responsible and not guilty of her crimes.
Let's say that instead of premeditatedly drowning her children, she picked them up at school after spending too long at happy hour. She's drunk, runs off the road, and kills her kids. Is she responsible then? After all, alcoholism and addiction are considered bona fide diseases, and any addictions counsellor will tell you that an alcoholic is completely out of control over their drinking and their actions while drinking.
But for some reason, a drunk driver is still held accountable. In fact, if you shoot someone while you're completely out of your mind on either booze or dope, you're going to be convicted, not found "not guilty by reason of intoxication".
Why the difference?
Let's assume for the moment that Andrea Yates was insane when she committed the crimes. That is to say, she was not in her right mind at the time, which means (in Texas at least) that she's not responsible and not guilty of her crimes.
Let's say that instead of premeditatedly drowning her children, she picked them up at school after spending too long at happy hour. She's drunk, runs off the road, and kills her kids. Is she responsible then? After all, alcoholism and addiction are considered bona fide diseases, and any addictions counsellor will tell you that an alcoholic is completely out of control over their drinking and their actions while drinking.
But for some reason, a drunk driver is still held accountable. In fact, if you shoot someone while you're completely out of your mind on either booze or dope, you're going to be convicted, not found "not guilty by reason of intoxication".
Why the difference?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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[Syl]
- Unfettered One
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- Been thanked: 1 time
Hmm, interesting. Should we then try the insane for manslaughter (as opposed to murder)?
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
-George Steiner
That I don't know. I'd assume that if someone is found to be insane during the course of a trial that murder would be taken off the table and manslaughter would be substituted.
I mean, that is the defense, that the person wasn't in control of themselves when the crime was committed. I fail to see the difference here.
I mean, that is the defense, that the person wasn't in control of themselves when the crime was committed. I fail to see the difference here.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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The Laughing Man
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 9033
- Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:56 pm
- Location: LMAO
Not according to the medical community or AA. An alcoholic (or addict) is by definition out of control.Esmer wrote:They chose to drink, or do drugs? They didn't choose to be insane?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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The Laughing Man
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 9033
- Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:56 pm
- Location: LMAO
after they chose to aquire the disease, maybe? Listen, I'm with you on the disease part, I suffer myself from it, but didn't I choose to take that hit? drink that drink? I didn't want to be an alcoholic, or a drug addict, but didn't I really choose to be one, in the beginning? I'm saying this as those who don't agree with you, not as myself, because I'm not sure what I feel right now....you may have a point....
No, you're not with me. I don't believe that addiction is a disease.
But, if you accept that it is (and the medical and legal communities do), then an alcoholic/addict is out of control and is afflicted with a medical condition that is not the addict's fault. Anyone with a disease like that isn't responsible for contracting it. The argument is that some people are born addicts, and all it takes is that first drink or drug to set things in motion.
So, from a medical point of view, there's really no difference between an addict and an insane person. Neither asked for their condition, and neither one is in control. Yet legally the drunk is responsible for any crimes he may commit, while the insane person is not.
This seems patently unfair.
But, if you accept that it is (and the medical and legal communities do), then an alcoholic/addict is out of control and is afflicted with a medical condition that is not the addict's fault. Anyone with a disease like that isn't responsible for contracting it. The argument is that some people are born addicts, and all it takes is that first drink or drug to set things in motion.
So, from a medical point of view, there's really no difference between an addict and an insane person. Neither asked for their condition, and neither one is in control. Yet legally the drunk is responsible for any crimes he may commit, while the insane person is not.
This seems patently unfair.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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