The Return of the King Extended Version ***Spoilers***

[burgs]

I thought that The Two Towers was *very* climactic. The last two chapters were Shelob's Lair and The Choices of Master Samwise. I thought it was the most climactic ending of all of the books (I'm referring to the 6 "books" that comprise the whole).

[Cybrweez]

Have to agree w/burgs there, TT was climatic in the books. Also, what surprised me the most, I thought w/all the fake out endings in the theater, that some extra footage was in there that was taken out, but the EE was exactly the same. I was hoping Saruman would've been in b/w one of those fakeouts(altho the scene they did do wasn't that bad).

[wayfriend]

What was Jackson's excuse for editing out Sarumon's scene in ROTK?

Time, as was said. He had so much movie even after trimming the unnecessary stuff out that he needed to trim some of the really important stuff, too. Not only Voice of Saruman, but the Gandalf/Witch King thing I would put in the same category.

That, plus Jackson posited that Saruman did not need to be "wrapped up". His army was taken care of and he was trapped in a tower helpess. He claimed that that was sufficient closure. (Even though everyone knows you have to face the evil overlord after you wipe out the evil overlord's minions - it's a rule of movies!)

Personally, TT would have been stunningly good if they had followed the climactic battle with ten minutes devoted to setting up the cliff-hanger for ROTK - Frodo captured, Sam with the Ring, Pippen on the way to Minas Tirith with Gandalf. Alas.

BTW, the *other* reason that TT got too big was his treatment of Faramir. He needed to make Frodo and Faramir have more of a conflict. On that I can agree. However, once embroiled, they needed to be extricated. So the whole Osgiliath piece needed to go in. IMO the scene where they captured Gollum in the forbidden pool could have been built up to do the same thing, and end up costing less.

[burgs]

I have problems with the way certain things were handled in Jackson's films, but in the end, even as a purist, I have a hard time imagining a better film (or better set of films).

He really did a phenomenal job, pulling off something that most people thought was impossible.

Now, if only funding for TC can be secured...

[Cybrweez]

Oh yea, I think the movies were so good. I even watched all the special features on the EEs.

But why is Jackson going after King Kong? What a waste of time, how many Kong movies do we really need? Just say Kong over and over, what a weird word.

[burgs]

That really is a puzzle. Apparently he was fascinated with Kong movies as a kid. So, like the Lord of the Rings was a childhood dream come true for him, I think the same principle applies to King Kong.

I just hope it isn't an embarassment. I'd hate to see him fall after doing so admirably with LOTR.

[A Gunslinger]

I was sick over the weekend, and on Saturday night, then Sunday night and Monday morning I wathced the entire trilogy (extended versions!).

I agree that the the Sauraman moments were great, and should not have been omitted. Nor only for the reasons that everyone jhas mentioned; but also for this reason:

Sauraman calls out Gandalf. He states that Gandalf has been using the hobbits. As much as he loves them, this IS true!!! Note that in the fellwship of the ring when the council starts arguing over who shall bear the ring and where it should go, Frodo shouts through the din that HE shall bear it. At that moment, Gandalf is shown to express a mixture of sadness for the hobbit (as he knows that it shall surely cause his doom), but also relief that the hobbit has agreed to take the cursed thing.

[wayfriend]

Interesting.

I gotta ask: when you watch the EEs end-to-end, which do you like the best?

I did that once a while ago (although it took several nights and not one marathon) and I came out thinking that Fellowship was the best. There is a Frodo/Aragorn/Borimer triangle that is the backbone of the whole movie, and it's just done really well, better than Frodo/Sam/Gollum. That, plus TT was streeeetched, while ROTK was cmprsd, but Fellowship was just right.

[A Gunslinger]

I gotta agree. Fellowship was probably the best among them in capturing the flavour of the original works..perhaps because the Shire was depicted so unbelievably well.

I did however like the extended material in both TT and RofK better than the material in FotR. Especially, the scene where Faramir is thinking about the scene between his father himself and Boromir. That and "Sauraon's Mouth" in RotK.

[wayfriend]

Good points. Except Mouth is kinda lame when you already know that Frodo escaped, no?

But what about ranking them as movies unto themselves, as opposed to how well they are adapted?

[A Gunslinger]

Good points. Except Mouth is kinda lame when you already know that Frodo escaped, no?

But what about ranking them as movies unto themselves, as opposed to how well they are adapted?

True about "mouth", but qat that point Sauron simply wanted the heroes of middle earth to despair. The scene also gave Aragorn another cool moment, ending the negotitation, as it were.

The best were:

1) FotR
2) RothK...which would have been even stronger withe the extra material)
3) TT (which suffered from having to set up the climax of the story..it wandered a little)

[Zarathustra]

Fellowship is the best. There was a magic to that film which is lost in the others. Maybe it's because it was the beginning, and the first time I'd seen Tolkien on the big screen. Those moments of anticipation, sitting in the darkened theater, and having my expectations ENTIRELY exceeded by that amazing opening, can never be topped by the other films. The first notes of the score still send shivers up my spine. Galadriel's monologue (which is actually Treebeard's words) is one of the most powerful, subtle openings I've ever seen (well, heard). Then the mind-blowing 2nd age battle. Then the Shire. Then the Black Riders. It was just a perfect sequence of pulling you in with intensity, settling you in with communal comfort, then pushing you out the door with a heart pounding flight.

The other two movies are noticeably "better" in visual quality; so much so, that they look like Jackson and co. spent more time on the look of the films than the story of the films. TT was ruined by expansion of things that didn't need expanding, and a compression of things that needed expanding. Treebeard's story should have been given more significance and nobility. His actions were contradictory in the movie. Aragorn shouldn't have had his "mock dying" moment (how many times did someone "fall to their deaths" in these movies, only to come back alive? Gandalf in Moria, Aragorn in Rohan, Gollum in Mordor, Frodo in Mt Doom, Sam in the river . . .it loses its effect after a while.) Theoden shouldn't have been such an ass after his transformation; not every character HAS to have a "progression." He already had his turning point when Gandalf healed him. He doesn't need another. Helm's Deep shouldn't have been a running away and hiding, but instead what it was in the books: a desperate stand.

ROTK was better, but still lacked the narrative structure of the first movie to give it cohesion. The tension Tolkien achieved in the books with the cliff hanger ending of TT is completely ruined, substituted with an awkward loyalty triangle between Sam, Frodo, and Gollum. Tolkien handled this part of the story much better.

I hate to keep comparing it to the books, rather than on its own terms, but it is precisely where they deviated from the books the most that the movies are at their worst. I think it would have been really daring if Jackson would have followed the narrative structure of the books: dividing each movie in half. It was the intercutting between story lines, and the necessity to follow the timeline accurately, which led Jackson to spoil the tension of Shelob, the Mouth of Sauron, etc.

Jackson said that ROTK would be light on story to put Shelob's Lair in TT. There's a little bit of truth here, because Frodo's entire journey in the 3rd movie would be stumbling toward the mountain. But that's fine! ROTK was the longest movie of all three. It would have been fine to shorten it. Perhaps even include the Scouring of the Shire that way.

These might have worked better as 6 movies.

[wayfriend]

Jackson said that ROTK would be light on story to put Shelob's Lair in TT. There's a little bit of truth here, because Frodo's entire journey in the 3rd movie would be stumbling toward the mountain. But that's fine!

Yes. Can you imagine, if TT ended the way TT was supposed to end, leaving Sam with the Ring and Frodo "dead"? Pippin and Gandalf on their way to Minas Tirith, while Merry is sad and alone in Rohan? Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas lost in the darkness of the Paths of the Dead? That's a real treat that we missed out on.

And then, ROTK would have nothing about Sam and Frodo until Aragorn is before the Black Gates. After all the intercutting in TT, that would have been positively suspenseful. And, again, that's a real treat we missed out on, the despair before the Black Gates, the real belief that all is doomed, all has failed, that this really is the LAST DESPERATE STAND.

Darn. Jackson really screwed up not talking to me about this first.