Pantheon 2.0 - Adomorn's Vote

[Mithyaat Vam]

I too will abstain from the vote, but not because I disagree with Adomorn or his intentions.

Whilst I respect Hedra Iren, I no longer believe that she is an impartial arbiter of the Law and as such I do not recognise her right to judge what is lawful and what is not. Furthermore, I do not believe that any change in the Law will not be applied in such a way that the original purpose of the amendment is circumvented.

The Law states that a deity may not attack one of their peers without just cause. Such statutes can be found in the legal systems of many developed societies. Yet most such societies have also outlawed intimidation and blackmail, yet such actions are entirely lawful among the deities of Eiran, in the form of the threats made against Bhakti and Jove's son. This would suggest to me that the Law is not established arbitrarily for the good of Eiran, but is subject rather to whim, or to hidden agendas.

Furthermore, when terms were offered to Nor Yekith he rejected them without consequence to himself. This would suggest to me that the Law is powerless to act on its own behalf, or that it is indecisive and unable to take firm action.

If in the future Hedra Iren chooses to act against me because I have taken an action that she deems to be outside the boundaries of the Law then it is well within her right to do so, but I will not bind myself to the Law of Eiran as it stands.

my sister speaks for me when i could not give language to my instincts.
i cannot fathom how this stalemate will be broken nor what ruin lies after.
you are wise, my sister, and i thank you for your voice in this fray.
i too abstain.

[Xar]

I too will abstain from the vote, but not because I disagree with Adomorn or his intentions.

Whilst I respect Hedra Iren, I no longer believe that she is an impartial arbiter of the Law and as such I do not recognise her right to judge what is lawful and what is not. Furthermore, I do not believe that any change in the Law will not be applied in such a way that the original purpose of the amendment is circumvented.

The Law states that a deity may not attack one of their peers without just cause. Such statutes can be found in the legal systems of many developed societies. Yet most such societies have also outlawed intimidation and blackmail, yet such actions are entirely lawful among the deities of Eiran, in the form of the threats made against Bhakti and Jove's son. This would suggest to me that the Law is not established arbitrarily for the good of Eiran, but is subject rather to whim, or to hidden agendas.

Furthermore, when terms were offered to Nor Yekith he rejected them without consequence to himself. This would suggest to me that the Law is powerless to act on its own behalf, or that it is indecisive and unable to take firm action.

If in the future Hedra Iren chooses to act against me because I have taken an action that she deems to be outside the boundaries of the Law then it is well within her right to do so, but I will not bind myself to the Law of Eiran as it stands.

Odal

While I may be the latest of the gods, you all know that I have existed since the First Age of Eiran, and have seen the last Divine Wars with my own undying eyes. And though none have asked my opinion - and why should you, I would add - I believe I am entitled to share it like all other gods. After all, I have watched from outside as you came to Eiran, and as you fought each other with words, and as you brought others into the Pantheon.
And I have seen what hypocrites most of you are.
Yes, hypocrites. You speak of things without any thought of why they work in a certain way, you hasten to place blocks when you do not like something and then complain about them, you seek to make words basis enough for punishment and you refuse to recognize your responsibilities. Only a few of you have shown not to be like this!
You yourselves raised Hedra Iren to the Pantheon as the keeper of the Law; but when she was given the Book and the Quill, you all hastened, like frightened children, to request failsafes and boundaries so that she could not abuse the Law. It was you all who did this, and the echoes of your arguing reached even me in my brooding tomb! You were frightened of Law, as before you had done what you wished, and you tried to curtail its power, make it work as you wanted without concern for the consequences.
Well, reap now the consequences! You have constrained Law with your words - that Hedra Iren shouldn't be allowed to craft or change Laws by herself, that she shouldn't be allowed to be the sole arbiter and judge of Law, that you all should have a say in new Laws. And now you dare complain that Law is ineffective? You complain that Law is unfair? If it is so, who has made it so? Who has bound Law with so many requests and failsafes that it is no longer able to act as it should? Frightened for your own safety, afraid that Law equaled Tyranny, you have brought all this upon your heads! You claim that Law is powerless, but whose fault is that? Have you even realized that, had you not bound Law with your provisions, it might have acted with far more efficacy upon being broken?
And you, Adomorn, God of Justice - what of your actions? What of your choices? Had Hedra Iren judged that Bhakti, Jove, O-gon-cho or others had broken Law, would you have gone to war against them, as Law demands? Or would you have tried all you could to wriggle away from such an unpleasant task - to attack and harm your allies and brethren? And then you claim you have the moral right to judge Hedra Iren or strip her of her role?
You are hypocrites, and this sickens me. None of you has wondered why the Laws are the way they are, and none of you has even thought that Hedra Iren is not Law alone: she is also a being, and has seen, as I have, the destruction of the Divine War. You fools have no idea of the destruction that was wrought then - you have not seen the countless dead, the shattered world, the skies weeping blood, the divine corpses hurled to the ground by the might of Nephirthos the Black God! You have not seen the cost in mortal lives, and yet you dare to stand in judgment of Hedra Iren because she seeks to avert war? Because she recognizes that the Law of Eiran does not exist to benefit the gods, but the mortals?
I warn you, godlings: in this I stand by Hedra Iren, rather than the "justice" of those who first forced her to submit Law to the will of the Pantheon, and then complain because that same Law is ineffective. The Destructor is a more honest god than any of you, for at least he only follows his nature, but you... Of all the gods, only a small handful have chosen to stand by Hedra Iren and understand her reasons; I have more respect for that handful than for those of you who prattle on like frightened children.
Reap what you have sown, godlings; now that Hedra Iren has retreated, destroy the world if you will, but in the last instant before Eiran is obliterated by the clash of the gods, you will look upon it and realize what fools you have been.

[Injerian Praetus II]

[O-gon-cho]

Odal, I believe Law is Law, and try to abide by it without complaining (much). But is it so wrong to want to have a say in what comprises the Law?

Hedra Iren, I know you have retreated. If I have offended you by my questions and proposals I apologize. I am still learning the way of how everything on Eiran works. While it is most likely too little too late, I offer my sincerest regrets for this turn of events.

[Xar]

Odal, I believe Law is Law, and try to abide by it without complaining (much). But is it so wrong to want to have a say in what comprises the Law?

Odal

Is it so right to bind the Law in so many provisions that Law is then made ineffective, and then complain about the fact that Law is ineffective and blame the Goddess of Law for this?

[Norn]

Odal, you are not the only deity of the Pantheon to have seen the horror that Nephirthos wrought upon Eiran. I too watched, as a mortal woman, as my world was ravaged by war. My mortal form felt the pain of the world shattered as it was also torn in pieces.

I did not raise Hedra Iren, and even when she was raised I wondered whether or not her ascension would benefit those who deified her in the way they hoped. I have watched her since, speaking where I felt appropriate yet seldom if ever committing myself where to do so would limit her power, hoping that my fears would prove unwarrented. Unfortunately thet have not.

I understand Hedra Iren's reasons Odal, as much as you do if not more so. I respect her for her willingness to stand by her decisions. I simply do not believe that she applies the Law in a fair and arbitrary fashion. You believe that she does so, and so choose to support her. I wish I could share your convictions, but I do not. As such, I cannot support her as guardian of the Law, though I never sought to raise her to such a position, nor have I ever attempted to limit her in that role.

If Law has been bound, it was not by me. Make such accusations elsewhere.

[O-gon-cho]

Odal, I believe Law is Law, and try to abide by it without complaining (much). But is it so wrong to want to have a say in what comprises the Law?

Odal

Is it so right to bind the Law in so many provisions that Law is then made ineffective, and then complain about the fact that Law is ineffective and blame the Goddess of Law for this?

:::puzzled:::

Have I blamed Hedra Iren in anyway? I only asked if there was a way the Pantheon itself could have a say in what is Law and how it is applied. Again, if I did, whether outright or through implication, my sincerest apologies are sent to Hedra Iren, as that was not my intention.

[Mithyaat Vam]

If what is essential to law is just that there exist specified recipes for making law, then there cannot be a moral obligation to obey a rule simply because it is the law.

While there might be a moral obligation to obey a particular law because of its moral content (e.g., laws prohibiting murder) or because it solves a coordination problem (e.g., laws requiring people to drive on the right side of the road), the mere fact that a rule is law does not provide a moral reason for doing what the law requires.

[Xar]

Odal, you are not the only deity of the Pantheon to have seen the horror that Nephirthos wrought upon Eiran. I too watched, as a mortal woman, as my world was ravaged by war. My mortal form felt the pain of the world shattered as it was also torn in pieces.

I did not raise Hedra Iren, and even when she was raised I wondered whether or not her ascension would benefit those who deified her in the way they hoped. I have watched her since, speaking where I felt appropriate yet seldom if ever committing myself where to do so would limit her power, hoping that my fears would prove unwarrented. Unfortunately thet have not.

I understand Hedra Iren's reasons Odal, as much as you do if not more so. I respect her for her willingness to stand by her decisions. I simply do not believe that she applies the Law in a fair and arbitrary fashion. You believe that she does so, and so choose to support her. I wish I could share your convictions, but I do not. As such, I cannot support her as guardian of the Law, though I never sought to raise her to such a position, nor have I ever attempted to limit her in that role.

If Law has been bound, it was not by me. Make such accusations elsewhere.

Odal

But you, goddess of fate, have not lived through the aftermath - you left your mortal frame behind when Nephirthos cracked the world, and did not live to see the times after, the courage and strength of the mortals as the whole world crumbled around them, as gods fell like flies before Nephirthos's might, as the skies bled and the seas boiled, as countless millions died because of the earth's convulsions. No, you didn't witness the end, the Sunless Days when all believed the world would end; you didn't live through the dreadful time in which the few survivors found themselves in a blasted landscape, bereft of their families, their houses, their civilizations and their gods, and worked unceasingly hard to recover from the Divine Wars. I have, and so has Hedra Iren. And I understand her desire to avert war more than most of you do, it appears.

And you, goddess of dreams, do you realize that Law is not good or bad, but just Law? That twisting Law to suit the side of good, or the side of evil, makes it Law no more?

I am amazed at what I see and hear; it is as if you had raised a little bird, then tied its wings, and now you complain because it cannot fly. Is this the wisdom of the gods we wish our followers to listen to?

Still I doubt that my words, Hedra Iren's, Simjen's or any other's will change the minds of those who do not see. Well, as I said, I'm sure they will see the folly of their actions when the world crumbles around their ears and they see at last that binding Law was madness.

Pray, godlings, that when the conflict clears - if there is an Eiran left after the battle - the Laws Hedra Iren will be left to write allow for your existence.

[Mistress Cathy]

Is it so right to bind the Law in so many provisions that Law is then made ineffective, and then complain about the fact that Law is ineffective and blame the Goddess of Law for this?

Have I missed something? How is the law being bound this time?

Still I doubt that my words, Hedra Iren's, Simjen's or any other's will change the minds of those who do not see. Well, as I said, I'm sure they will see the folly of their actions when the world crumbles around their ears and they see at last that binding Law was madness.

Just because you see it a certain way does not mean that the rest of us see it as such.

I also had no hand in raising Hedra though I welcomed her. Yet, I found myself bound by laws that I had no part in making. The laws seem to bind the most tightly those of us who try to keep them.

Once, I innocently tried to have a trade agreement written in the book of law and was told that it was too binding and unfair. I still to this day do not understand fully how it was so but I took my pill anyway like a good little girl and moved on without incident, trusting the word of Hedra Iren.

As myself and others have stated before, we do not seek laws at all. We would much prefer to have no laws. We are gods, afterall.

However, I am weary of debating to stalemate.

I am also weary of being called names and threatened by gods with whom I disagree.

I have never once insulted or called any names (except maybe AK who regularly thrives on it ) to any god.

Never once have I made any threats to any god - even AK.

I am sure that my actions have had bad consequences in the past however, when I found out about it, I have acted quickly to apologize and make reparations in a timely manner.

I have debated issues and stated my position. I am now being called a fool for it.

If some gods cannot handle discussion and debate without mud-slinging and name calling then I will not get into a pissing-contest with them. I thought gods were made of stronger stuff and able to leap beyond their own vision without condemning the rest of us as 'fools' simply because we disagree.

I am a very reasonable goddes and am willing to listen to an opposite opinion. But I found not one argument from Hedra and now from Odal that would convince me that perhaps I was mistaken in my view of the law and I refuse to listen to a god who chooses to name-call me. It is rude and unnecessary.

It was only when the All-Fatherer explained in clearer detail the reason for the law (ooc - in the comments thread) that I put the debate to rest in my own mind and I accepted the law, finally understanding the true reasons for it.

So, I have put the debate aside and will have no more of it.

But, let me state one thing: if my son feels the power of another god without my consent, there are some gods here that I will hold accountable.

[Benito Alvarez]

And you, Adomorn, God of Justice - what of your actions? What of your choices? Had Hedra Iren judged that Bhakti, Jove, O-gon-cho or others had broken Law, would you have gone to war against them, as Law demands? Or would you have tried all you could to wriggle away from such an unpleasant task - to attack and harm your allies and brethren? And then you claim you have the moral right to judge Hedra Iren or strip her of her role?

You judge me with no previous actions of mine. I have said since the begining of my words with Nor. Should it have been any other member of the Pantheon, I would get them to stop in the same manner as I am with Nor. Should words not work, and if it came to military action, Yes. I would do what I am required to do to stop them.

As for yourself, Odal. You have seen Divine War, yes? Then what would you do to stop another? You have already worked to insult and demaned most of the the Pantheon. You claim to be above us. So instead of further insults, lets hear what you can do?

Exactally HOW did you stop the LAST Divine War, eh?

[Xar]

And you, Adomorn, God of Justice - what of your actions? What of your choices? Had Hedra Iren judged that Bhakti, Jove, O-gon-cho or others had broken Law, would you have gone to war against them, as Law demands? Or would you have tried all you could to wriggle away from such an unpleasant task - to attack and harm your allies and brethren? And then you claim you have the moral right to judge Hedra Iren or strip her of her role?

You judge me with no previous actions of mine. I have said since the begining of my words with Nor. Should it have been any other member of the Pantheon, I would get them to stop in the same manner as I am with Nor. Should words not work, and if it came to military action, Yes. I would do what I am required to do to stop them.

As for yourself, Odal. You have seen Divine War, yes? Then what would you do to stop another? You have already worked to insult and demaned most of the the Pantheon. You claim to be above us. So instead of further insults, lets hear what you can do?

Exactally HOW did you stop the LAST Divine War, eh?

Odal

You misunderstand me, Adomorn - I didn't stop the last Divine War, but I did what I could to accomplish that purpose. I was no god then, and I was far less powerful than I was six months ago. I served my lord Argothoth as he gained Nephirthos's trust and then betrayed him, exposing him to the other gods, and ending the conflict once and for all. And for this, the other gods entombed my lord.

[Norn]

Odal, you are not the only deity of the Pantheon to have seen the horror that Nephirthos wrought upon Eiran. I too watched, as a mortal woman, as my world was ravaged by war. My mortal form felt the pain of the world shattered as it was also torn in pieces.

I did not raise Hedra Iren, and even when she was raised I wondered whether or not her ascension would benefit those who deified her in the way they hoped. I have watched her since, speaking where I felt appropriate yet seldom if ever committing myself where to do so would limit her power, hoping that my fears would prove unwarrented. Unfortunately thet have not.

I understand Hedra Iren's reasons Odal, as much as you do if not more so. I respect her for her willingness to stand by her decisions. I simply do not believe that she applies the Law in a fair and arbitrary fashion. You believe that she does so, and so choose to support her. I wish I could share your convictions, but I do not. As such, I cannot support her as guardian of the Law, though I never sought to raise her to such a position, nor have I ever attempted to limit her in that role.

If Law has been bound, it was not by me. Make such accusations elsewhere.

But you, goddess of fate, have not lived through the aftermath - you left your mortal frame behind when Nephirthos cracked the world, and did not live to see the times after, the courage and strength of the mortals as the whole world crumbled around them, as gods fell like flies before Nephirthos's might, as the skies bled and the seas boiled, as countless millions died because of the earth's convulsions. No, you didn't witness the end, the Sunless Days when all believed the world would end; you didn't live through the dreadful time in which the few survivors found themselves in a blasted landscape, bereft of their families, their houses, their civilizations and their gods, and worked unceasingly hard to recover from the Divine Wars. I have, and so has Hedra Iren. And I understand her desire to avert war more than most of you do, it appears.

I fully understand Hedra Iren's desire to avert another divine war Odal - do not forget that my mortal friends all died serving their various deities against Nephirthos before he shattered Eiran. As such, it was I who attempted to negotiate peace between Nor Yekith and Adomorn. I was unfortunately unsuccessful yet I made the attempt because my deepest desire was that war should not rear its head again. You may ask our sister O-gon-cho if you disbelieve, for we had a number of private conversations on the subject.

However, I am also a mother. If any member of the Pantheon where to harm my beautiful Zeldalia in any way then I would summon all the power that I possessed against them. My anger would likely know no bounds. I therefore also fully understand the fear and frustration of Bhakti and Jove, for Nor Yekith has threatened their son many times and they are apparently powerless to respond within the Law. The God of Malice declared that he would lacerate my brother and sister's divine child before casting him into a mutation pit, and the Law did nothing! It seems that while blackmail and intimidation are illegal in most developed societies, they are perfectly allowable in barbaric Eiran.

As a member of the Pantheon I desire peace, and I will go to great ends to achieve it. However, as a mother I will do whatever it takes to protect my child. I expect Bhakti and Jove to do no less.

The Law will not protect their son - it will only avenge him when he is dead. What other choice do they have?

[Benito Alvarez]

Notice:

I will be closing the poll on this legislation. The votes needed to stop it from passing are higher than the maximum. However, I will keep the thread open for further discussion, or we can move it into the game thread.


:EDIT:

I need someone else to end the poll, I guess I can't do it.

[Vadhaka]

Xar can do it.

[Xar]

Let's move this into the Game Thread.

[Astavyastataa Kadna]

Notice:

I will be closing the poll on this legislation. The votes needed to stop it from passing are higher than the maximum. However, I will keep the thread open for further discussion, or we can move it into the game thread.


:EDIT:

I need someone else to end the poll, I guess I can't do it.

Xar can LOCK this thread to end the poll!