The Wounded Land, Chapter 2: Something Broken

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The Wounded Land, Chapter 2: Something Broken

Post by danlo »

TWL Chapter Two, Something Broken-submitted by Seafoam Understone:

Linden Avery being asked by another doctor to visit a leper saves the life of an old man who had fallen from an apparent heart-attack. An odd encounter with even stranger words, brief physical contact and then he’s gone. For someone in the medical field and with Avery’s determination to save lives no matter the costs (to herself) this is a shocking experience. And indeed she sits by the side of the road in shock. She asks herself did she dream it? Physical evidence shows contrary to that (familiar) line of thought.
But then her gaze lurched toward the dirt where the old man had lain. There she saw the used hypodermic, the sterile wrappings, the empty vial. The dust bore the faint imprint of a body.

A shudder ran through her, and she began to relax.

So he had been real He had only appeared to vanish. Her eyes had tricked her.

Rational thoughts from a rational (?) person.
I am thinking that the physical contact seemed to be important. Covenant bumped into the old man at the beginning of LFB and the old beggar grabs his arm...and here LA is embraced. Maybe important, maybe nothing. But in both incidences the old beggar/creator (?) initiated physical contact. Then a brief conversation or dialogue afterwards. Both of them performed kind/humanitarian deeds for the beggar. TC offering a place to stay and/or his ring and Linden saving his life.
She did not remember why she had come to Haven Farm until the book on the seat beside her caught her attention.

Oh, damn!

She felt intensely unready to confront Thomas Covenant. For a moment, she considered simply abandoning the favor she had promised Dr. Berenford. She started the engine, began to turn the wheel. But the exigency of the old man's eyes held her. That blue would not approve the breaking of promises. And she had saved him. She had set a precedent for herself which was more important than any question of difficulty or mortification. When she put the sedan into motion, she sent it straight down the dirt road toward the white frame house, with the dust and the sunset at her back.

One notable difference between TC’s and LA’s encounter with the old beggar is that LA had time to be shaken up by it. Had time to think and ponder. Whereas TC a few moments later got smacked by the police car and sent reeling to the Land. But of course LA doesn’t ponder too much on the encounter as she remembers why she was headed to Haven Farm. Purposeful amnesia? Or just a mind sorting out priorities.
The light cast a tinge of red over the house, as if it were in the process of being transformed into something else.
This reminds me of the symbolism that was found in the Sixth Sense. Red being used only to indicate that the dead were around. Here it seems to be an obvious reference to Blood.
The house was silent.

Her shoulders throbbed with the consequences of strain. Fatigue and embarrassment made her arms feel too heavy to lift. She had to grit her teeth to make herself knock again.

Abruptly, she heard the sound of feet. They came stamping through the house toward her. She could hear anger in them.

The front door was snatched open, and a man confronted her, a lean figure in old jeans and a T-shirt, a few inches taller than herself. About forty years old. He had an intense face. His mouth was as strict as a stone tablet; his cheeks were lined with difficulties; his eyes were like embers, capable of fire. His hair above his forehead was raddled with gray, as if he had been aged more by his thoughts than by time.

He was exhausted. Almost automatically, she noted the redness of his orbs and eyelids, the pallor of his skin, the febrile rawness of his movements. He was either ill or under extreme stress.

She opened her mouth to speak, got no further. He registered her presence for a second, then snapped, "Goddamn it, if I wanted visitors I'd post a sign!" and clapped the door shut in her face.

One of my most favorite scenes of the entire series. Despite the learning experiences he got from the Land and it’s people he still acts like a jerk, I’ve another word for it but won’t do it here. Things haven’t changed obviously in the “real-world” and TC still being outcast/unclean has to deal with people’s irrational fear and ostracism. Of course this suits him fine. I mean, leave me alone means leave me alone...period. But now the outside world wants to intrude upon him again. But of course LA isn’t one of those who hates him. But with her next lines she obviously hates anyone who feels sorry for themselves. Her insight is clear here, as well as her sense of irony.
She blinked after him momentarily while darkness gathered at her back, and her uncertainty turned to anger. Then she hit the door so hard that the wood rattled in its frame. He came back almost at once. His voice hurled acid at her. "Maybe you don't speak English. I -- "

She met his glare with a mordant smile. "Aren't you supposed to ring a bell, or something?"

That stopped him. His eyes narrowed as he reconsidered her. When he spoke again, his words came more slowly, as if he were trying to measure the danger she represented.

"If you know that, you don't need any warning."
She nodded. "My name is Linden Avery. I'm a doctor."
"And you're not afraid of lepers."

His sarcasm was as heavy as a bludgeon; but she matched it. "If I were afraid of sick people, I wouldn't he a doctor,"

His glower expressed his disbelief. But he said curtly, "I don't need a doctor," and started to swing the door shut again.

"So actually," she rasped, "you're the one who's afraid."

His face darkened. Enunciating each word as if it were a dagger, he said, "What do you want, doctor?"
A battle of wills begins here I think. Establishing the strengths of the characters in the trials up ahead. Establishing if you will the characters’ character. Covenant seems the stronger until Linden smacks him in the face with this line...
But then a leap of intuition crossed her mind. Speaking before she could question herself, she said, "That old man told me to 'Be true.'"

His reaction startled her. Surprise and fear flared in his eyes. His shoulders winced; his jaw dropped. Then abruptly he had closed the door behind him. He stood before her with his face thrust hotly forward. "What old man?"
Was it intuition on her part. Or did the physical contact strike a chord inside her. There’s no obvious connection (for her) between the old man and Covenant, except that he was at the end of his drive.
That fact takes whatever hot-air out of Covenant’s sails and makes him realize that it’s not over yet.

Now what I can’t figure out is why LA left after hearing (Joan) scream the first time. She finds the easy way out by deciding to confront Berenford instead of Covenant for answers.

At Berenford’s he doesn’t give her any clearer answers except a brief history, he’s bound by doctor’s ethics not to go into detail of Joan’s affliction which is B.S. because LA is a doctor as well and that kind of exchange is alright if it’s on a consultation basis which Berenford could use to protect himself legally. My thought is that he does have a suspect but in this modern day and age it’s a step towards the asylum to suggest it.

Note that she totally forgets about the “old man” until she arrives at the spot where she first met him.
Coincidence? Convenient? Maybe.

Back at his house she confronts him and he does everything he can to deny her help. It’s his cross to bear. The old man’s appearance is almost like a fore-warning to him. Time is close and he’ll have to return and fight Foul again. It’s his cross to bear and no-one else’s.
"Or is something going to happen to me? What does that old man have to do with me? Why do you say he chose me?"

"He's using you." Covenant's hands occluded his voice. But he had mastered himself. When he dropped his arms, his tone was dull and faint, like the falling of ashes. "He's like Berenford. Thinks I need help. Thinks I can't handle it this time." He should have sounded bitter; but he had momentarily lost even that resource. "The only difference is, he knows-what I know." "Then tell me," Linden urged again. "Let me try."

By force of will, Covenant straightened so that he stood upright against the light. "No. Maybe I can't stop you, but I as sure as hell don't have to let you. I'm not going to contribute to this. If you're dead set on getting involved, you're going to have to find some way to do it behind my back." He stopped as if he were finished. But then he raged at her, "And tell that bastard Berenford he ought to try trusting me for a change!"
Of course the next important line sums up for me the whole crux of the reason TC has to go back and faces the hell the Land has become.
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken
."

Joan’s “feral hunger” for TC’s blood is evident that Foul has possessed her. It’s almost symbolic that once she/he (Foul) tastes TC’s blood that he leaves sated and returns Joan to as she is... a broken shell of who she once was. Foul is wanting revenge. A classic villain desire if ever there was one.
"It doesn't hurt," he said. "The backs of my hands have been numb for years." The torment was gone from his face; it held nothing now except the long weariness of a pain he could not heal.
Wonder if Covenant would be so willing if he could feel the pain? Or would he even care. Joan is back. Now all he’s gotta do is fix it.
Last edited by danlo on Sat Nov 01, 2003 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Furls Fire »

Wow! 8O Awesome lead-in Seafoam!! :D :D

This chapter really sets more of the stage. Joan's possession, Linden severity, and Covenant's extremity.
Seafoam wrote:

The house was silent.

Her shoulders throbbed with the consequences of strain. Fatigue and embarrassment made her arms feel too heavy to lift. She had to grit her teeth to make herself knock again.

Abruptly, she heard the sound of feet. They came stamping through the house toward her. She could hear anger in them.

The front door was snatched open, and a man confronted her, a lean figure in old jeans and a T-shirt, a few inches taller than herself. About forty years old. He had an intense face. His mouth was as strict as a stone tablet; his cheeks were lined with difficulties; his eyes were like embers, capable of fire. His hair above his forehead was raddled with gray, as if he had been aged more by his thoughts than by time.

He was exhausted. Almost automatically, she noted the redness of his orbs and eyelids, the pallor of his skin, the febrile rawness of his movements. He was either ill or under extreme stress.

She opened her mouth to speak, got no further. He registered her presence for a second, then snapped, "Goddamn it, if I wanted visitors I'd post a sign!" and clapped the door shut in her face.



One of my most favorite scenes of the entire series. Despite the learning experiences he got from the Land and it’s people he still acts like a jerk, I’ve another word for it but won’t do it here. Things haven’t changed obviously in the “real-world” and TC still being outcast/unclean has to deal with people’s irrational fear and ostracism. Of course this suits him fine. I mean, leave me alone means leave me alone...period. But now the outside world wants to intrude upon him again.
I actually understand Covenant's ire here. He wants no one involved in this, because no one could possibly understand it. I don't think it's the unclean/outcast thing. His attitude, in this instance, comes from trying to keep all this a secret. And, if I were trying to keep such a thing as this a secret, I too would come off with attitude and try to frighten people away. Altho, Covenant is much better at that than I am. :)
"No. Maybe I can't stop you, but I as sure as hell don't have to let you. I'm not going to contribute to this. If you're dead set on getting involved, you're going to have to find some way to do it behind my back." He stopped as if he were finished. But then he raged at her, "And tell that bastard Berenford he ought to try trusting me for a change!"
Covenant knows what is happening here, knows the implications, knows what he is going to have to do. And he doesn't believe anyone would be able to fully comprehend any of it. What floors him is the creator telling Linden to "be true." How is she involved? Why is she involved? What could she possibly have to do with any of it?
But then a leap of intuition crossed her mind. Speaking before she could question herself, she said, "That old man told me to 'Be true.'"

His reaction startled her. Surprise and fear flared in his eyes. His shoulders winced; his jaw dropped. Then abruptly he had closed the door behind him. He stood before her with his face thrust hotly forward. "What old man?"

She met his fire squarely. "He was out at the end of your driveway-an old man in an ochre robe. As soon as I saw him, he went into cardiac arrest." For an instant, a cold hand of doubt touched her heart. He had recovered too easily. Had he staged the whole situation? Impossible! His heart had stopped. "I had to work like hell to save him. Then he just walked away."

Covenant's belligerence collapsed. His gaze clung to her as if he were drowning. His hands gaped in front of him. For the first time, she observed that the last two fingers of his right hand were missing. He wore a wedding band of white gold on what had once been the middle finger of that hand. His voice was a scraping of pain in his throat. "He's gone?"

"Yes."

"An old man in an ochre robe?"

"Yes."

"You saved him?" His features were fading into night as the sun dropped below the horizon.

"Yes."

"What did he say?"

"I already told you." Her uncertainty made her impatient. "He said, 'Be true.'"

"He said that to you?"

"Yes!"

Covenant's eyes left her face. "Hellfire." He sagged as if he carried a weight of cruelty on his back. "Have mercy on me. I can't bear it." Turning, he slumped back to the door, opened it. But there he stopped.

"Why you?"

Then he had reentered his house, the door was closed, and. Linden, stood alone in the evening as if she had been bereft.
You asked why Linden just didn't confront Covenant again after she heard Joan scream instead of going to Berenford's. My opinion on this is that she wanted more "armor" before she confronted Covenant again. And she thought Berenford could give that to her. And he did, enough anyway, to get past Covenant's defenses when she went back out there.

And what foreshadowing for what is to come!! Whew!!!

There's only one way to hurt a man who has lost everything...give him back something broken.

We are on our way...
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Re: The Wounded Land, Chapter 2: Something Broken

Post by Fist and Faith »

Furls Fire wrote:
Seafoam wrote:One of my most favorite scenes of the entire series. Despite the learning experiences he got from the Land and it’s people he still acts like a jerk, I’ve another word for it but won’t do it here. Things haven’t changed obviously in the “real-world” and TC still being outcast/unclean has to deal with people’s irrational fear and ostracism. Of course this suits him fine. I mean, leave me alone means leave me alone...period. But now the outside world wants to intrude upon him again.
I actually understand Covenant's ire here. He wants no one involved in this, because no one could possibly understand it. I don't think it's the unclean/outcast thing. His attitude, in this instance, comes from trying to keep all this a secret. And, if I were trying to keep such a thing as this a secret, I too would come off with attitude and try to frighten people away.
Yup. Keeping people away is the only answer. Nobody who doesn't go to the Land is ever going to believe him if he's fool enough to try to explain it. If anybody learns anything about Joan, they'll probably assume the worst, and he'd be in deep trouble. Even though he knows it won't work, he tries to explain that he can't explain:
"You don't know what's going on here. You couldn't possibly understand it."

...

"But I'm on the inside of this thing, and you aren't. I know it. You don't. It can't be explained. You don't understand what you're doing."
If Linden didn't end up in the Land (That's not really a spoiler, is it? :) ), who knows how bad her reaction would be in the long run.

Furls Fire wrote:And, if I were trying to keep such a thing as this a secret, I too would come off with attitude and try to frighten people away. Altho, Covenant is much better at that than I am. :)
I was gonna say we should ask your husband about that. But then I remembered you're expecting #6, so... :)

But then a leap of intuition crossed her mind. Speaking before she could question herself, she said, "That old man told me to 'Be true.'"

His reaction startled her. Surprise and fear flared in his eyes. His shoulders winced; his jaw dropped. Then abruptly he had closed the door behind him. He stood before her with his face thrust hotly forward. "What old man?"
What a great scene! :) I can just see his face when she speaks that sentence!
Seafoam wrote:Now what I can’t figure out is why LA left after hearing (Joan) scream the first time. She finds the easy way out by deciding to confront Berenford instead of Covenant for answers.
I don't think it would be wise for a lone woman to fight her way into a house where there's at least one man if she thinks another woman is in danger.
Seafoam wrote:At Berenford’s he doesn’t give her any clearer answers except a brief history, he’s bound by doctor’s ethics not to go into detail of Joan’s affliction which is B.S. because LA is a doctor as well and that kind of exchange is alright if it’s on a consultation basis which Berenford could use to protect himself legally. My thought is that he does have a suspect but in this modern day and age it’s a step towards the asylum to suggest it.
Well, Berenford says, "I can't tell you why she came back because he told me in confidence." Maybe he's not withholding because of doctor/patient confidentiality, but because Covenant trusts him. If he's not sure what's going on, but obviously believes Covenant is doing all he can for Joan, he might not think breaking that trust is justified.
Seafoam wrote:
"It doesn't hurt," he said. "The backs of my hands have been numb for years." The torment was gone from his face; it held nothing now except the long weariness of a pain he could not heal.
Wonder if Covenant would be so willing if he could feel the pain? Or would he even care. Joan is back. Now all he’s gotta do is fix it.
I don't doubt for a second that he'd be as willing if he could feel the pain. For Joan, who he loved, who he never blamed, who he believes is in this mess because of him, he'd do it.
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
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Post by Furls Fire »

Fist wrote:
Furls Fire wrote: And, if I were trying to keep such a thing as this a secret, I too would come off with attitude and try to frighten people away. Altho, Covenant is much better at that than I am.

I was gonna say we should ask your husband about that. But then I remembered you're expecting #6, so...
:haha:
Fist also wrote:
Seafoam wrote:
Wonder if Covenant would be so willing if he could feel the pain? Or would he even care. Joan is back. Now all he’s gotta do is fix it.

I don't doubt for a second that he'd be as willing if he could feel the pain. For Joan, who he loved, who he never blamed, who he believes is in this mess because of him, he'd do it.
Hear hear!!! Most definitely.
Spoiler
He is willing to sacrifice himself for her.
He wouldn't think twice about cutting his hands whether he could feel it or not.
Fist again, several times wrote:Quote:
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."
Quote:
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."
Quote:
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."
Quote:
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."
Quote:
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."
Ummm...are you trying to say you like this quote? Or did your quoter thingie get stuck?? :lol: :lol:
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by dlbpharmd »

But then a leap of intuition crossed her mind. Speaking before she could question herself, she said, "That old man told me to 'Be true.'"

His reaction startled her. Surprise and fear flared in his eyes. His shoulders winced; his jaw dropped. Then abruptly he had closed the door behind him. He stood before her with his face thrust hotly forward. "What old man?"

She met his fire squarely. "He was out at the end of your driveway-an old man in an ochre robe. As soon as I saw him, he went into cardiac arrest." For an instant, a cold hand of doubt touched her heart. He had recovered too easily. Had he staged the whole situation? Impossible! His heart had stopped. "I had to work like hell to save him. Then he just walked away."

Covenant's belligerence collapsed. His gaze clung to her as if he were drowning. His hands gaped in front of him. For the first time, she observed that the last two fingers of his right hand were missing. He wore a wedding band of white gold on what had once been the middle finger of that hand. His voice was a scraping of pain in his throat. "He's gone?"

"Yes."

"An old man in an ochre robe?"

"Yes."

"You saved him?" His features were fading into night as the sun dropped below the horizon.

"Yes."

"What did he say?"

"I already told you." Her uncertainty made her impatient. "He said, 'Be true.'"

"He said that to you?"

"Yes!"

Covenant's eyes left her face. "Hellfire." He sagged as if he carried a weight of cruelty on his back. "Have mercy on me. I can't bear it." Turning, he slumped back to the door, opened it. But there he stopped.

"Why you?"

Then he had reentered his house, the door was closed, and. Linden, stood alone in the evening as if she had been bereft.
This is a curve ball that Covenant could never have foreseen. For 10 years he's lived with the knowledge that he was the Land's Savior. For everything else that he's done wrong, in the end, he was faithful to the Land. Since Joan's return, he's realized that Foul is going to try him again, and he's started to prepare himself. Then some stranger steps to the door unannounced and unwelcome, and tells him that (in effect) she's been chosen by the beggar/Creator. No wonder he's so perplexed, and says "Why you?"
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Furls Fire wrote:Ummm...are you trying to say you like this quote? Or did your quoter thingie get stuck?? :lol: :lol:
Nice quote. :)
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
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Post by danlo »

I'm always interested in what Covenant was doing between the books. During the ten years that seperate them. And I find this quote below to be SO meaningful and insightful:
"His disease was active again. We sent him back to the leprosarium.

"When he came home again , everything was different. He seemed to have recovered his sanity. For ten years now he's been stable. A little grim maybe--not exactly what you might call difficult--but accessible, reasonable, compassionate. Every year he foots the bill for several of our indigent patients."
I find it odd that I alway forget that he was sent back to the leprosarium. Berensford also tells Linden that he has published seven novels in this time with three or four more in the works. Well-just the comparision of Or I Will Sell My Soul for Guilt shows how much Covenant has matured in this time-and obviously his experience in the Land has helped to kindle that maturity. Gratitute probably helped him greatly in his growth-a gratitute that stems from the Creators gift.

So what made the difference during his second trip to the leprosarium? Acceptance? Surely TC was very busy during these ten years, but what else do you speculate he did in this time. Was Berensford the only person he talked to? Did he work to make inroads with Joan and Roger, or not?

Finally why (and how) do you think Berensford thinks Linden is the right person to talk to Covenant? Is he such a good reader of personality that he
thinks Linden's "loner-dark past" will benefit from such an encounter? And vice-versa? Did he have all this set up as a perogative for her hiring? Or did he just get lucky? Will it benefit both and why? Is he gifted or is this another subtle push from the Creator? :?
Last edited by danlo on Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

danlo wrote:Well-just the comparision of Or I Will Sell My Soul for Quilt
Add that to my list of Favorite Danlo Typos!! :D
danlo wrote:So what made the difference during his second trip to the leprosarium? Acceptance?
I never questioned his new-found... Well "serenity" isn't right. But whatever it's called, I never questioned it. Acceptance is a good part of it. He learned to accept parts of himself that he either hated or didn't know he had. He also learned what strength comes from acceptance.
danlo wrote:Surely TC was very busy during these ten years, but what else do you speculate he did in this time. Was Berensford the only person he talked to? Did he work to make inroads with Joan and Roger, or not?
hmmm. I don't have much speculation in this area. It could be that Berensford was one of the only people who would talk to him. I suspect writing took up a huge chunck of his time. 7 books might take several years, after all. Didn't SRD say he spent 10 on the two Chronicles? Not that Covenant is likely to be as good a writer, so maybe a little less than a year per book. :)
danlo wrote:Finally why (and how) do you think Berensford thinks Linden is the right person to talk to Covenant? Is he such a good reader of personality that he thinks Linden's "loner-dark past" will benefit from such an encounter? And vice-versa? Did he have all this set up as a perogative for her hiring? Or did he just get lucky? Will it benefit both and why? Is he gifted or is this another subtle push from the Creator? :?
Jeez, you ask a lot of questions!! ;) :D

I'd say that he is, indeed, such a good reader of personality. He knows that they are both in serious pain. And he knows that people in pain often don't see the point in talking to someone who hasn't experienced any themselves. Does Miss America have anything to say to Covenant? I'll bet Covenant doesn't think so. Someone who has also suffered wouldn't dream of saying some of the usleless things that he's probably heard a million times. And misery loves company.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
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Post by Foamfollower1013 »

She opened her mouth to speak, got no further. He registered her presence for a second, then snapped, "Goddamn it, if I wanted visitors I'd post a sign!" and clapped the door shut in her face.
Classic Covenant. :lol:
He snatched at her wrist. "Listen." His voice must have held emotion - urgency, anguish, something - but she did not hear it. "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."
There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken.

This, I think, is the central idea of the whole Second Chronicles.

~Foamy~
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Post by Furls Fire »

exactly :)
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by Seafoam Understone »

Fist and Faith wrote:
danlo wrote:Well-just the comparision of Or I Will Sell My Soul for Quilt
Add that to my list of Favorite Danlo Typos!! :D
ditto
danlo wrote:So what made the difference during his second trip to the leprosarium? Acceptance?
I never questioned his new-found... Well "serenity" isn't right. But whatever it's called, I never questioned it. Acceptance is a good part of it. He learned to accept parts of himself that he either hated or didn't know he had. He also learned what strength comes from acceptance.[/quote]

Acceptance is a big part in building strength of character. That's why Covenant was so "weak" in the early series because he was indeed "the Unbeliever". Now he's stronger, more familiar
Spoiler
... though the Land is definitely not what it was... except Andelian. But he's defintely stronger. He goes through it being strong for both him and Linden.
danlo wrote:Surely TC was very busy during these ten years, but what else do you speculate he did in this time. Was Berensford the only person he talked to? Did he work to make inroads with Joan and Roger, or not?
hmmm. I don't have much speculation in this area. It could be that Berensford was one of the only people who would talk to him. I suspect writing took up a huge chunck of his time. 7 books might take several years, after all. Didn't SRD say he spent 10 on the two Chronicles? Not that Covenant is likely to be as good a writer, so maybe a little less than a year per book. :)

If I read it right... Covenant was a best selling author. Hmm, wonder if Covenant is really a psudeonym for SRD mebbe he went through it for real... ok he don't have leprosy but what a way to throw off any suspicion that all of that REALLY happened! :roll:
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Post by danlo »

You know what...I make one little mistake...and now even Seafoam is on my case--thanks alot Fist-I'll get you for this! :D

I agree the TC's experiences in the Land taught him very valuable lessons re: acceptance (just as the Creator's gift may have taught him gratitude)-the lessons weren't easy by any means and happened, relatively in the blink of an eye, as far as our world's time frame. I guess what I'm really interested is your thoughts on how Covenant put that acceptance into play during the last ten years and in the leprosarium. Acceptance is tough for any one in our reality, especially someone who has a marked "coping" problem amidst society (as opposed to penal institutions).

As someone familiar with what I'm talking about-I thought Seafoam would be excited to discuss this-I too am familiar with 12 step programs and acceptance and gratitude play huge roles in any "recovery" program. In and odd way even TC's experiences in the Land can be seen as a "crash course" in recovery. But how did he apply these things in our world, at the leprosarium and life--how do you?
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Post by Furls Fire »

When you ask about his acceptance, danlo, you are referring to him accepting his leprosy, right? And whether or not his first experience in the Land helped him accept it. I would say definitely "yes". It most certainly did. The Land taught Covenant many things, not the least of which was that just because you are familiar with grief and despair, and are sick, you are not impotent to be useful and effective in doing something that is in so many ways beyond you. Surviving Lord Foul and that poison from the snake bite taught Covenant that just because he had leprosy, he wasn't a lesser person.

How do you accept that which you cannot change? My brother had AIDS, he couldn't change that. How did he accept it? Thru faith. Each person is different. Some people never accept their illnesses, some people kill themselves, rather then live with the constant pain of them, and some do what TC did, which was live in isolation and sink into it. Become bitter and angry and despairing.

I think Covenant's experiences with the people of the Land, whether it was all just his dream or not, helped him on his way to acceptence. He was sent back to the leprosarium because the snake venom, and the fact that he wasn't taking care of himself at all reactivated his leprosy. I'm sure while there, he had time to ponder over what had happened to him and grew to acknowledge and accept his illness.

Not sure if I responded the way you wanted. But, thought I would give it a whirl :)
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by Landwaster »

I love reading this stuff but can't really contribute as I don't have the books on me. So, unfortunately, I can only offer throwaway stuff, like :

Car bumper sticker : "So actually, you're the one who's afraid."
Tee shirt : "What do you want, doctor?"
Tee shirt : "What old man?"
Tee shirt : "I had to work like hell to save him."

And a sign on the front door in place of home sweet home :
"Goddammit! If I wanted visitors I'd post a sign."
Do you think I like being this dangerous?
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Post by Fist and Faith »

danlo wrote:You know what...I make one little mistake...and now even Seafoam is on my case--thanks alot Fist-I'll get you for this! :D
*glup* 8O

;) :LOLS:


Landwaster, I think Edith Bunker said it best: Shame shame. Everybody knows your name.
You don't need to quote anything to tell us what you think he learned during the 1st Chrons, and how he used that in his rl.


To be more specific than I was above, I think Covenant's lesson was that, amazingly enough, it was possible to view leprosy as a strength! As has been quoted a few times, the Creator spells it out:
"Despair is an emotion like any other. It is the habit of despair which damns, not the despair itself. You were a man already acquainted with habit and despair-with the Law which both saves and damns. Your knowledge of your illness made you wise."
Among other things, this is why Covenant didn't curl up into the fetal position from the horror of Foul's attack in The Unbeliever:
Nevertheless he was on his home ground. He knew leprosy with the intimacy of a lover; he knew that it could not happen so swiftly, so completely. It was not real. And it was not all of him. This heinous and putrescent gnawing was not the sum total of his being. Despite what the doctors said - despite what he was in himself - he was more than that, more than just a leper.
Spoiler
Incidentally, the Haruchai learn a similar lesson in WGW. Because of the incident with the merewives, Cail is immune to the Clave's taking over the Haruchai minds:
"It is agreed that such unworth as mine has its uses."
He never knew this stuff before LFB, and particularly before TPTP. After, he was able to cope with leprosy, and anything else the world might throw at him, much better than before. His post-TPTP books are works of great achievment:
"If you didn't know better, you wouldn't be able to believe his bestseller and the other seven were written by the same man."
Perhaps none of the characters in these books have cause to reproach him. :)
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
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Post by danlo »

danlo thinks too much, gets sappy and fails to make sense:

Furls I'd really like to know what your brother thought of the Chrons, and especially his ideas about TC at this point. Covenant's developement and maturity at this point in his life really encourage me. I'm so proud of him I can barely stand it. He has achieved such an incredible serenity and grace that it's almost beyond me. But it also makes me incredibly sad as well-it's seems he has found the key to living outside himself, as if the 1st Chronicles was truly a search for his own personal sanity.

As if the personal lessons, the sacrifies of others and great victories in the Land translate into small victories in real life that cannot be taken for granted, that there comes a time to get out of your own head an contribute to the world as best your are able to. As if the new novels represent this expansion and connection to the world in a much more "selfless" manner-as opposed to the inane/self serving, Or I Will Sell my Soul for Guilt. Indeed his whole outlook on life seems so much more connected and selfless.

I guess what makes me really sad is that these qualities can also open one up to the possibility of finding true love, having the ability to truly contribute to such a relationship and, honestly, make it work. Damm I'm not making sense right now-but it just seems unfair that if his marriage to Joan is comparable to "Guilt" then the possibility of such a beautiful selfless and giving relationship at his new level of maturity isn't possible due to his disease...well maybe I'm not making sense at all-
Spoiler
but now enter Linden-and Linden is not the only one the Creator is talking to when he says, "There is also love in the world.".
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Post by Furls Fire »

danlo, Stephen loved these books. I think I mentioned in his memorial thread or the other thread that I started how much these books meant to him. And the main reason for that was Thomas Covenant. Leper as hero, or anti-hero. Steve identified with Covenant on many levels. Having AIDS, he knew what it felt like to see revulsion on people's faces when it was apparent that he was sick. Not from the people who knew him tho. Because the people that knew him, really knew him, and those that didn't and were repulsed by him were just ignorant. He used to laugh about that, say things like "fear and ignorance looks funny on people." He had a way of just letting it roll off him.

It took awhile for Covenant to reach that point tho. Steve used to say that the 1st Chrons were Covenant's "emergence into self". He had to get beyond the self-pity and self-loathing in order to actually find who he was, to accept that which he can not change. He would quote that little poem in LFB alot. "These are the pale deaths, which men miscall their lives." He was fascinated by this "miscalling of life." In fact, I posted his journal entry on that. He felt that Covenant was in the "miscall" of his life up until he defeated Foul. Stephen loved the next chapter coming up, when
Spoiler
Covenant smiles for Joan after he sacrifices himself for her
He used to say. "In that moment, his acceptance of his disease, his fate, his destiny, his life was completely achieved. Thomas Covenant now understood that he could not change his leprosy, and he was finally aware that leprosy was not all that he was. And he was ready to do what needed to be done, whatever it may be, for the Land." And he also said. "Thomas Covenant was now ready to believe."
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by danlo »

8O Wow! :faint:
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Post by Furls Fire »

;)
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by Seafoam Understone »

So it goes back to the other thread on the reality of the Land. It was real. Just too impossible to believe. Covanant had to experience it the first time (LFB) to know it's there, then the second (TIW) to show nothing has changed, I mean when was the last time you had consecutive dreams that everything was exactly the same... the people, places and such... circumstances not withstanding? The third trip (TPTP) was the confirmation that he can do something about what was going on "in his dream".
Now thus no longer an unbeliever he can be more effective with whatever he does the next time he goes back. Of course... Foul has other plans for him as well... :evilfoul: :E |V |L |R

So basically the Land IS real? Hmm...
remember the Oath Of Peace!

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