Runes, Part 2, Chapter 10 - Troubled Sanctuary

[DukkhaWaynhim]

I think he was saying that the absence of the SoL by shifting it out of the time stream might weaken the altered past enough to give Foul et al more of an advantage over the time gap, since the presence of the Staff upholds existing Law.

dw

[Zarathustra]

I think he was saying that the absence of the SoL by shifting it out of the time stream might weaken the altered past enough to give Foul et al more of an advantage over the time gap, since the presence of the Staff upholds existing Law.

dw

If he is saying that, then we're in agreement. I suspect, however, that we're not. Much of this suspicion derives from the fact that we're talking about one of my theories, rather than one of Wayfriend's. But I'm willing to be proved wrong on this point. In fact, I welcome such a correction.

[tonyz]

I would agree with the idea that the absence of the Staff opened the way for the Despiser to do lots of things -- he's attacking the natural order of things, which the Staff helps to uphold and protect. To that extent, I think the Staff helps against him.

But I don't think it's an offensive weapon against him; the Law and the Earthpower can't directly affect him. Remember Kevin's failure, and the inability of the Power of Command to affect the Despiser, who existed before the Arch of Time was forged?

[DukkhaWaynhim]

In fact, if you think of LF as supreme strategist (or perhaps hopboard player? ), what better way to trash the Land than to force Linden and/or TC into situations where they must poke holes in the fabric of Time to do what they think is best for Land or loved ones?
Isn't that Foul's way? In fact, isn't that the only way? It isn't just Foul being nasty... if he could break the Arch on his own, he would have done so long ago.

dw

[wayfriend]

Sorry, been busy... I just wanted to raise the point that some of the damage done to the Law when the first Staff of Law was destroyed might have been due to it was destroyed more than because it went missing. The analogy would be blowing up a block in a building vs sliding out out gently.

Second, even then, there is still Foul. The earth might not have changed much when the first Staff was destroyed if Foul didn't actively go in and mess with it. There's no evidence that, this time, he has done something similar. If he hasn't - because, say, he has a different plan this time - then there might not be so much fall out.

[Zarathustra]

Wayfriend, good point about missing vs destroying. You're rigth, they aren't the same. Intuivitely, it seems like there should be an important difference in LF's reactions to take this distinction into account.

However, the only way this distinction can have meaning is to say that when the Staff isn't around, it can still have an effect. If its power can transcend time in this way, then it's influence should be present even after it has been destroyed--which eliminates the very distinction we're talking about. It's not merely *missing* during that time period after which Linden removes it. It hasn't been misplaced. It has been violently wrenched out of its own time, and forced via a fundamental violation of Law to occupy a different time period. This should be at least a detrimental to the Land as destroying the Staff. At the very least, it shouldn't constrain LF from attacking the Land. And I'd expect other negative effects (like Kevin's Dirt)even if LF did nothing to take advantage of it.

[wayfriend]

Two other things I forgot to mention on my last post...

First, we don't know if the new Staff ever came to occupy a similar position of supporting the Law as the old Staff did. It had not been in use for very long, and it certainly was not used by someone who had (and I hate to use this word again) lore. And in the GI Donaldson says that merely creating the new Staff doesn't put things back the way they were.

Secondly, we have yet to explore how this new Staff is 'alive' and different from the old Staff.

I'm just throwing these things on the pile of things to think about.

But I think the central issue is still this: nothing much would happen because the Staff was gone unless Foul decided to take advantage of the situation and corrupt things.

And while Linden healed the Sunbane, the creation of the new Staff did not close the door that was opened by the loss of the first Staff. So it could very well be that Foul would be able to corrupt the Earthpower with or without the new Staff being present. Probably what is more important was that there was no one weilding the Staff in the defense of the Earth and resisting Lord Foul.

And that damage was done when Anele was ceasured away. As long as there was no one around to actually use the Staff, I don't think it mattered too much whether or not it was physically/chronicalogically present.

[iQuestor]

And that damage was done when Anele was ceasured away. As long as there was no one around to actually use the Staff, I don't think it mattered too much whether or not it was physically/chronicalogically present.

I know the old staff was created by Kevin (who was guided by the creator) to personify Law (probalby a bad choice of words, I know). I forget the passages (I am sure you know them) but wouldnt the new staff serve a similar purpose? I wouldnt think the Elohim and the creators of Vain would sacrifce so much to create it if it didnt uphold the Law as the old staff did.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

But, the new SoL is significantly different from the first. The first SoL was intricately carved with runes, that I imagine circumscribed and defined its purpose as a tool of Law. The new, living SoL was created with the same general intent, but remember what comprises it - an Elohim Appointed and an ur-vile creation. If the Elohim are earthpower incarnate, and in the 2nd Chronicles, Foul was stated as having corrupted Earthpower by sustaning himself with it after his first defeat by Covenant, well does that make Foul less personally threatened by the new SoL? Foul defeated himself in his second showdown with Covenant, by expending himself extravagantly against TC, who had already died at Fouls hand.
I propose that Foul isn't as threatened by the SoL so much as he is the empowered person that wields it, especially if that person learns how to do really useful things with Wild Magic.

The second SoL isn't as much about what it is, it's about what you can do with it if you know how.

dw

[Zarathustra]

A classic from the GI:

Am I right in thinking that the destruction of the Staff weakened the structure of Law? Did that destruction make existing Laws easier to break, and Earthpower easier to corrupt?

Did the creation of the new Staff at the end of the Second Chronicles restore the broken Laws (of death, Life, etc)?

The Staff of Law was created as a means to wield the energy of Earthpower safely--i.e. without violating the various constraints of Law. But because this is magic rather than technology (because it deals in symbolic unities rather than in discrete mechanisms), the Staff cannot be inherently separate from the forces and rules which it exerts. It's not a light switch, essentially distinct from the flow of electricity which it enables. In a certain sense, the Staff *is* both Law and Earthpower, just as white gold *is* wild magic. In fantasy, in magic, the tool cannot be distinguished from what the tool does.

So. Even though the Staff was never essential to the original existence of either Law or Earthpower, the simple fact of its creation means that it participates in both, and can therefore: a) strengthen both, or b) weaken both (by being destroyed). So yes, the destruction of the original Staff weakened the structure of Law.

But. This is does *not* imply that Linden's creation of a new Staff *automatically* restores the structure of Law to its original form. A tool has to be used to be effective; and the person using the tool has to know what he/she is doing. Linden, and then Sunder and Hollian, clearly have the spirit and the heart to use the Staff effectively; but they don't necessarily have the lore, the knowledge, to accomplish everything that the Staff is capable of doing. (The absence of runes on the new Staff is not an accident.) Also the new Staff is profoundly different than Berek's original creation. It was formed, not from the wood of the One Tree, but from one sentient (Findail) and one quasi-sentient (Vain) being, each of whose nature affects the inherent qualities of both the new Staff and what the new Staff can do. (And then there's the interesting question of whether Sunder and Hollian would actually *want* to heal the broken Law of Life, since by doing so they might undo themselves.) And in addition: when the new Staff was created, it became an inherent participant in both Law and Earthpower, just as Berek's did; BUT the *condition* of Law and Earthpower when Linden created her Staff was different than it was when Berek created his; and therefore the *condition* of the new Staff is also different.

So. The creation of the new Staff did not *in itself* restore the broken Laws of Death and Life. Presumably it *could*. If the right wielder used it in the right way. But that hasn't happened yet.

<whew>

(12/20/2004)

This, I consider to be the quintessential post about the SoL. Though there are differences between the old and the new Staff, I think we can agree on a couple of absolutes which apply to both. ". . . the Staff cannot be inherently separate from the forces and rules which it exerts." Nothing about the new Staff changes this. And given that it cannot be separate from earthpower and law, it must still be the case that "the simple fact of its creation means that it participates in both, and can therefore: a) strengthen both, or b) weaken both (by being destroyed). So yes, the destruction of the original Staff weakened the structure of Law." I see no difference between "destruction" and "being ripped out of its rightful (lawful) time," unless its influence spreads to times in which it doesn't exist--but that nullifies the effects of destruction, too. So, just as earthpower and law were weakened when the 1st Staff was destroyed, both should have been weakened when the 2nd was ripped out of its rightful time.

But, Linden's Staff doesn't automatically restore Law. This, I believe, was in reference to the specific broken laws, such as the Law of Death and Life, and not Law in general. The specific broken Laws would require direct intervention by someone wielding the Staff for that purpose. But simply by its nature, it supports law in general, or it wouldn't be the SoL.

Lastly, we have the important point that both Earthpower and Law are different this time around, so the 2nd Staff's participation in both will be affected. Previously, earthpower itself wasn't corrupted when the original Staff was created. So can we conclude that this Staff is somehow tainted? That even its presence creates problems because of the conditions in which it was created?

Lots of stuff to think about, here.

[SoulBiter]

And in addition: when the new Staff was created, it became an inherent participant in both Law and Earthpower, just as Berek's did; BUT the *condition* of Law and Earthpower when Linden created her Staff was different than it was when Berek created his; and therefore the *condition* of the new Staff is also different.

The only word that comes to mind is..... DAMN

[wayfriend]

Yes, Malik, that quote is the most informative GI passage on this subject.

The only thing that it leaves open to opinion (at least to me) is whether or not the Staff of Law immediately becomes so essential that losing it is harmful, or if this is something that happens over time as the Staff is used.

Which makes a big difference in this case, I feel. It may be possible that the New Staff falls on the 'not used too much' side. The statement "they don't necessarily have the lore, the knowledge, to accomplish everything that the Staff is capable of doing" seems to imply this; the Staff was not used as effectively as it could have been for the short time it was around. Also, Donaldson describes the relationship between the ringweilder and the ring in very similar terms, and in that case unity is something that grows over time.

But otherwise the evidence is, whatever Foul was able to do before to create the Sunbane, he could still do it, regardless of the New Staff being present. (That's not to say that a Staff weilder could not oppose him.)

Which brings us back to, ceasuring it to a different time may not have made much difference in and of itself.

It certainly prevented anyone from gaining lore to use it, or from the Staff growing into a critical component of Law, or from anyone using it to resist Foul. But Linden already ascertained that these things did not happen anyway before she chose to use the ceasure.

[SoulBiter]

Makes you wonder if a Ceasure would have even been possible with the old staff of Law.

[Zarathustra]

But Linden already ascertained that these things did not happen anyway before she chose to use the ceasure.

And you have complete confidence in Linden's reasoning and her choices? If there's nothing dangerous about her choice to retrieve the Staff, then why was everyone so horrified by it? Sure, they helped her because they trusted her, but they still thought it was very dangerous. And maybe this danger was in changing the past, or hurting the Arch, and not specifically in removing the Staff itself. But if Linden's reasoning and choices are foolproof, then a lot of dramatic tension is lost. From a pure story-telling perspective, I have a hard time believing Donaldson would give up this chance to ratchet up the tension and show how his characters have made mistakes which seem fatal (similar to the failure at the One Tree).

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[dlbpharmd]

ROTE, Troubled Sanctuary:

"A long trudge, that," she remarked to the air. "Long and weary. And the Mahdoubt can no longer recall her first youth, though she has been shamelessly charmed."

First Youth? Shamelessly charmed?

Speculation:

Spoiler

She must be Kastenessen's lover.