Durances and Appointed

[callback]

I have the distinct impression that the Arch and the Earth are two seperate things. The Worm could eat all of the Elohim and devour the earth but th Arch would still be standing. There just wouldn't be an Earth, or Land, in it.

That's my impression now too. Despite the fact that SRD has said things that imply the contrary.... (Please don't ask me to search in the GI, as that's a quest that would daunt Lord Prothall. Perhaps searching some of my older posts would lead you to a thread that discusses this possibility eventually.)

[Fist and Faith]

No need to look through the GI. Again:

"Are you blind at last?" His voice rang like a carillon in agony. "Employ your sight! You must see! For this has the Despiser wrought his ill against you! For this! The Worm defends the One Tree! Have you learned nothing? Here the Despiser cannot fail! If the Worm is roused, the Earth will end, freeing Despite to wreak its vengeance upon the cosmos. And if the ring-wielder attempts to match his might against the Worm, he will destroy the Arch of Time. It cannot contain such a battle! It is founded upon white gold, and white gold will rive it to rubble!"

Does the part I bolded mean Foul would still be within the AoT? If that's the case, why wouldn't Foul just leave the Earth, and wreak vengeance upon the cosmos, now? Tamarantha told us Despite was trapped within the Arch, not on Earth. So he should make something to fly him into space.

It seems to me it's not that easy. Maybe the only thing in the Arch is the Land's Earth. So destorying it might make the Arch just sorta fizzle out. Combining the creation myths seems to suggest there were things in existence before the Creator made the Land's Earth. The cosmos was already there. Then he made his creation - first forging the Arch, so he would have a place of his creation to exist.

[Aleksandr]

Is it possible that Findal was just in an utter panic and we shouldn't take his words as if they were a sober science lecture on the structure of the Land's universe? Yes, Lord Foul would be free in space if the Earth ended. but what good would that do him? He'd be a disembodied spirit floating around uselessly with no one torment and no hope of ever getting outside Time to continue his war with the Creator. That's why he needs the white gold.

[Fist and Faith]

Well, I, for one, think the best explanation for Findail's comments about the Guardian is that he was lying. Yeah, other possibilities, but nothing specific to go along with the theory. (Alas, I doubt SRD will be giving any kind of explanation for why Findail lied about it, any more than he'll give any other explanation for it.) So I'm willing to believe he was lying about this, too. And absolutely it's possible that he was in a panic.

(Have I mentioned I'm not a fan of the Final Chrons yet? )

[Fist and Faith]

I can't imagine he'll simply be put back either.

However, iirc (I don't have TOT in front of me) Kas' love harmed the woman. It's not just that they disapproved; she was being damaged.

OK, here it is:

"He gave himself in love to a mortal woman. He walked among her folk as a man of their own kind. But in her private home he was an Elohim to ravish every conception of which flesh that dies is capable.

"That was an act which we repudiated, and would repudiate again, though we do not name it evil. In it lay a price for the woman which she could neither comprehend nor refuse. Gifted or in sooth blighted by all Earth and love and possibility in one man-form, her soul was lost to her in the manner of madness or possession rather than of mortal love. Loving her, he wrought her ruin and knew it not. He did not choose to know it.

"Therefore was he Appointed, to halt the harm. For at that time was a peril upon the Earth to which we could not close our eyes. In the farthest north of the world, where winter has its roots of ice and cold, a fire had been born among the foundations of the firmament. I do not speak of the cause of that fire, but only of its jeopardy to the Earth. Such was its site and virulence that it threatened to rive the shell of the world. And when the Elohim gathered to consider who should be Appointed, Kastenessen was not among us. Yet had he been present to bespeak his own defense, still would he have been Appointed, for he had brought harm to a woman who could not have harmed him, and he had called it love."

So the danger required an Elohim be Appointed, and Kas was chosen because it would stop him from harming the woman. Kill two birds with one stone.

[Atrium]

I actually loved that part of TOT. And if Donaldson chooses to keep on builing on the story of the tragic love between Kastenessen and his woman, i think it could make for a fantastic story. Maybe the Elohim in their arrogance were wrong after all? Maybe they have no understanding of love, being so self complete (or full of themselves?). Maybe Kastenessen, in falling in love, discovered something that all the Elohim would need to learn, and got punished for it? Like i stated, i think that the last chronicle will revindicate Kastenessen. Doesnt Mhoram say something along the lines of "choices made out of love can never be wrong", in TPTP?

[Aleksandr]

Re: Despite the fact that SRD has said things that imply the contrary

I think its great that SRD answers our questions in the GI, but his answers are pretty off the cuff and he doesn't have time to go searching back through all he's written (nor should we want to distract him that way-- he's got two more books to write!) So if he says something that contradicts the text of the Chronicles we need to discount it. The actual text of the stories should always supersede the GI where the two conflict.

Re: Maybe the only thing in the Arch is the Land's Earth.

No. The stars are within the Arch, at least if you accept the Giantish tale of the Creator's Children getting stranded inside. And the Worm too then must be inside the Arch.
And again: what use is floating around space going to be to Lord Foul? Who's he going to torment? A few stars maybe? He wants out so he can attack the Creator, and meanwhile he'll have himself a fine old time ruining the Land and its people.

[Fist and Faith]

And again: what use is floating around space going to be to Lord Foul? Who's he going to torment? A few stars maybe?

Yup. If merely getting off the Earth was useful to him, he'd have done so by now. If he can't simply fly away, and fly through space, he could have made some creature that could carry him. But he didn't do any of that. So waking the Worm so it would destroy the Earth, thus "freeing Despite to wreak its vengeance upon the cosmos" is another bit of misinformation we got from Findail - whether he was lying or just didn't know what he was talking about.

[earthbrah]

Atrium wrote:

Maybe the Elohim in their arrogance were wrong after all? Maybe they have no understanding of love, being so self complete (or full of themselves?). Maybe Kastenessen, in falling in love, discovered something that all the Elohim would need to learn, and got punished for it?

That would certainly fit with races and individuals exceeding what they perceive to be their own limitations, a theme SRD keeps riffing on.

[Anele]

And again: what use is floating around space going to be to Lord Foul? Who's he going to torment? A few stars maybe?

Yup. If merely getting off the Earth was useful to him, he'd have done so by now. If he can't simply fly away, and fly through space, he could have made some creature that could carry him. But he didn't do any of that. So waking the Worm so it would destroy the Earth, thus "freeing Despite to wreak its vengeance upon the cosmos" is another bit of misinformation we got from Findail - whether he was lying or just didn't know what he was talking about.

Here is a thought.
Maybe the Creator is bound not to interfere with the Land because he doesn't want to break the arch and free Foul. He figures the Land/Earth will survive.
However maybe Foul will use the destruction of the earth as sort of a hostage thing. Maybe he figures the destruction will be enough to finally get the Creator to interfere.

It is kind of convoluted and stretching things a bit but maybe that is what Findail was saying. Though at this point I hardly trust anything the Elohim have said in the past.

[Fist and Faith]

Here is a thought.
Maybe the Creator is bound not to interfere with the Land because he doesn't want to break the arch and free Foul. He figures the Land/Earth will survive.
However maybe Foul will use the destruction of the earth as sort of a hostage thing. Maybe he figures the destruction will be enough to finally get the Creator to interfere.

It is kind of convoluted and stretching things a bit but maybe that is what Findail was saying.

I don't follow you. If the Creator enters the Arch to try to prevent the Worm from being woken (or whatever other plan Foul might have to destroy the Earth), he would destroy the Arch, and Foul would be free. If he doesn't enter the Arch, and the Earth is destroyed, he no longer has to do anything at all. Foul will now be trapped in a prison (the Arch) that is filled with rubble, instead of in a prison, but on a pretty planet with the Land.

Though at this point I hardly trust anything the Elohim have said in the past.

Amen!

[Soulsong]

"He gave himself in love to a mortal woman. He walked among her folk as a man of their own kind. But in her private home he was an Elohim to ravish every conception of which flesh that dies is capable.

"That was an act which we repudiated, and would repudiate again, though we do not name it evil. In it lay a price for the woman which she could neither comprehend nor refuse. Gifted or in sooth blighted by all Earth and love and possibility in one man-form, her soul was lost to her in the manner of madness or possession rather than of mortal love. Loving her, he wrought her ruin and knew it not. He did not choose to know it.

Could this woman have been Joan? When did Joan start losing her sanity in the real world? Would this have potentially coresponded to big K's dalliance?

[AjK]

Could this woman have been Joan? When did Joan start losing her sanity in the real world? Would this have potentially coresponded to big K's dalliance?

Good question. It wasn't in the first chronicles. Not sure of her exact mental state in the second but SRD says he was planning for the third chronicles while writing the second so you could be on to something. Btw, welcome to Kevin's Watch, Soulsong! You may wish to head over to the Summonsing and introduce yourself.

[earthbrah]

Now THAT is an interesting idea, though I don't think it's really possible.

But I like where your head's at, Soulsong.